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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe

481 replies

YourHateIsShowing · 16/07/2026 08:41

The Daily Express and others claiming the reaction to Ann Widdecombe’s death has somehow “exposed the left” as hateful, is nonsense as usual.

There is hate on the left. Without question. There’s also hate on the right. There are totally extreme nut jobs on both sides, too. Neither side has a total monopoly on either. But I think it’s pretty lazy to not see past the noise and understand the origin of hatred on any side of conflict. Context is everything. And most can agree with that when it comes to certain situations. As a mother, I understand the hatred a mother would feel towards a drunk driver who ended their child’s life through one careless selfish decision to drive home from the pub intoxicated. Or for worse crimes we know exist. I’m using these examples simply to make the case that our value systems should be consistent. Not to imply the level of harm is the same in all cases. That would be an overreach.

Ann Widdecombe was a deeply controversial politician. She was unapologetic about her views on immigration, LGBTQ+ rights, welfare and poverty. I remember her response when challenged about people who couldn’t afford a cheese sandwich: her answer amounted to, “Don’t have a cheese sandwich then.” I’ve watched her for years as a speaker on right wing conservative talking points; she dedicated her life to politics, but very often in ways that supported the structural degradation of groups of already marginalised people in society. So I loathed what she stood for and I make no secret of that.
And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

What I will say though, is this: what happened to her was awful. Abhorrent. What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things. Views that had influence. That doesn’t mean she deserved what happened to her. I feel for her, and her family. She would have been scared. She has my empathy for that. In spades. But I certainly don’t think others who were the focus of her intolerance should be expected to rewrite history or suppress honest criticism of the suffering she supported within society, out of respect for some weird convention that says we should only speak well of the dead. I don’t buy into that.

I’m sure Ann loved her family, had close friends, and watered all her house plants. I don’t see the world in terms of heroes and villains. We can be either at any time under different circumstances. But for those who’ve maybe read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you may also find truth in the words of Covey who said “we are what we repeatedly do”. If you repeatedly lie, guess what? You’re a liar.

There’s truth in that, even though I mostly see people on a spectrum and not in the binary. I still see the small compounding decisions they repeatedly make, and more importantly how those decisions impact others. We can also accept conflicting ideas, where good people commit a bad act, for good reason. It’s complicated.
But overall, some people leave the world a tiny bit kinder, fairer and more compassionate as a result of those compounding decisions met with their sphere of influence. Others leave it more divided, more fearful or less equal. Most of us fall somewhere in between. And most have little influence outside our immediate circle.
Ann had more than the average bod, so I hold her and other public figures to a higher standard. She didn’t stack up, for me.

Ann Widdecombe accepted and even defended policy that saw totally unnecessary poverty and hunger (children included), in the 6th richest country in the world. She stood against abortion in cases of rape. And she consistently fought against gay rights. She repeatedly contributed to this. This is who she was. What she stood for. And what those who support her stand for.

So what the right read as hatred among the left today, in the wake of this awful event that brought her world views into sharp focus, I read as an intolerance not of her skin colour, or her sexual orientation, or her nationality, but of all she stood for and against; all she was intolerant of in people without choices.

Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance explains this best, I think. If you’ve not come across it, it’s essentially characterised by an intolerance of intolerance itself. The difference is this: to be intolerant of someone’s skin colour, ethnicity, or other things they cannot change, such as their sexual orientation, or even level of poverty, certainly if you’re still a child born into it, is not the same as having an intolerance of those who punch down at them from a place of privilege.

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic and believed science should one day cure it, as if being gay were a disease to be eradicated. That’s a profound intolerance of something people cannot change. The same cannot be said of a worldview built on prejudice, bigotry or theocratic ideology. Those are beliefs. They’re decisions. They can be questioned, challenged and changed. Even after death. And if she and others like her directed more of their intolerance towards harmful ideas, rather than towards people for who they are, and for that which they cannot change, we’d have less hatred on both sides. But the root of that hatred, is glaringly obvious when you actually take the time to analyse it. Spoiler alert: it’s not coming from the left.

So this headline can get in the bin.
Where it belongs.

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe
OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Whisperingwaters · 16/07/2026 11:48

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/07/2026 11:43

You didn’t provide the quote to back up your statement because it’s a lie, and you know that full well, as does practically every other poster on this thread.

Wrong. The piece quotes JKR directly. That you’re cognitive bias makes you incapable of understanding the obvious logical conclusions from those quotes makes it impossible for you to comprehend her transphobia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitivebias

Cognitive bias - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias

WiddleWaWa · 16/07/2026 11:48

OneQuirkyPanda · 16/07/2026 11:35

She was a controversial divisive figure, so there will be controversial divisive opinions following her death.

I don’t think she deserved to be murdered or die, but not sure why it’s not acceptable for me or others to say they won’t grieve her or are not sad about her death? You can’t say one set of offensive opinions are acceptable, but others aren’t. Unless, someone is breaking the law or inciting violence it’s all just freedom of speech.

Anne very much exercised her right to freedom of speech, no matter how much she offended some people, and this is what many posters here are defending, so let others do the same.

TRIGGER WARNING GRAPHIC

But how, as a human, can you not be sad about the murder of a 78 year old woman in her own home because she was 'a divisive figure'?

That is what you said "not sure why it’s not acceptable for me or others to say they won’t grieve her or are not sad about her death?"

You don't have to grieve her. Grief is personal, it is an expression of love for someone. Nobody expects you to feel that.

But for you to think of a woman, almost 80 years old, realising there is a man in her home. A stranger and the fear she must have felt once she realised his malicious intentions knowing that she has no possible way, as an elderly woman, to protect herself from him. And then the physical pain she must have felt whilst he viciously beat her to death. Was it an instant death? Did she lay there for hours? Did he taunt her?

How, just how could you hear that and NOT be sad? It just seems absolutely heartless and inhumane to me.

Im not even saying you have to EXPRESS IT in writing. You don't have to comment about her at all in her death if you didn't like her, but do you really not feel any sadness for her death? I assume you are a woman?

Just as a woman, knowing one day you will be almost 80 and maybe alone at times.

Just because she was 'devisive'? That divisiveness in her opinions is enough for you to lose your sadness in the brutal murder of an elderly woman?

So if she was an LGBT campaigner you would allow yourself to feel the emotion of her death? But you close that off because of her opinions?

I find that incredibly strange.

If someone told me now that Heather Herbert, the man who rejoiced in Anns death, had been beaten to death in his own home for making that grotesque remarks I would be absolutely horrified and deeply, deeply saddened that his last moments were as such. I would be saddened that someone felt it was appropriate to murder him for those words and that his last moments on this earth were filled with fear. Nobody deserves to die that was for words alone.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 11:48

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 11:23

That's fine by you, I happen to feel them actively fighting against my right to marry for years and hoping I can be cured one day as disagreeing fundamentally with my existence. Could you explain in more detail how it's not hateful when the basis of her belief is literally described as hating the sin?

The concept of sin is itself not as black and white as many people make it. In order to be a Christian, you have to acknowledge that you are imperfect, and most Christians confess their own sinfulness frequently and regularly – it is an essential part of most church services, for example. So we are not accusing other people of something we don't acknowledge in ourselves. If a Christian describes any aspect of your behaviour as "sinful" they are a hypocrite if they don't describe their own behaviour as sinful also (and Jesus was excoriating towards hypocrites!). The "hate the sin and not the sinner" cliché is not very helpful, partly because it plays down the moral and ethical dilemmas we all face.

Sin is sometimes described as a falling short of the intention of God for people. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." So those who see marriage as the uniting of a woman and a man, with a reproductive function as a main purpose, may see that as an ideal. A same sex relationship can then be seen as falling short of that ideal. I'm not convinced by that line of reasoning, but I think that's where Ann Widdecombe was coming from, and that she wanted the word marriage in the context of human relationships to be reserved for something she saw as sacred. I think she saw same sex relationships as less than ideal. Personally, I think that committed and loving same sex relationships, in which the partners care for and look after each other, have a lot to commend them.

Beowulfa · 16/07/2026 11:46

FFS, nobody is being asked to "grieve" as though they knew Widdecombe personally, or acknowledge her as a "saint" (as a deeply religious woman she would never have referred to herself as such).

I personally expect adults to be able to give politely neutral responses in the aftermath of a violent murder of an elderly woman, or just say nothing at all.

nauticant · 16/07/2026 11:46

There's often the claim that the problem in the gender debate is that the two sides are as bad as each other. When they're clearly not.

There's an attempt to do something similar by the OP here. But having been involved in the gender debate for a decade, and by extension observing the operations of cancel culture, I came to the view that while there's violence at the extremes on both sides, for the left the tolerance of this violence seems to extend far more to the centre ground of the left than it does for the right.

For ages I assumed I was just experiencing confirmation bias. But then I found this:

https://yougov.com/en-us/articles/52960-charlie-kirk-americans-political-violence-poll

Note particularly the section Most Americans say it's unacceptable to be happy about public figures' deaths, but younger and more liberal Americans are more likely to call it acceptable.

It's fair to say that you can't compare the US and the UK in simple terms but when you're talking about online omnicause activism, the US and the UK are rather similar a number of respects.

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2026 11:44

Whisperingwaters · 16/07/2026 11:30

You take it wrong. And this isn't even touching on her tweets.

"In an attempt to demonstrate her understanding of where transgender people are coming from, Rowling even says she too might have considered transitioning had the option been available to her as a teenager. “The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge, “ she writes. “If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.”

The belief that gender identity is a phase, a choice, or something that is influenced by other people is a stereotype that minimizes the struggles of anyone who experiences gender dysphoria. Transitioning isn’t easy but Rowling seems to be saying people can choose to transition on a whim simply because they think it’s more convenient to be one gender than another.

In her essay, Rowling goes on to reveal that she is a domestic and sexual abuse survivor and those experiences have made her even more focused on biology, “out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.”
Referring to the debate around public washrooms in particular, Rowling claims she’s concerned for the safety of cis women and girls. “When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman—and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones—then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside.”

Throughout her essay, Rowling talks about how easy it is for a biological man to become a woman in the eyes of the law and how potentially dangerous that could be for cis women. The fear that a large number of transgender women are just men who want to be able to use women-only spaces unchecked is a harmful stereotype that paints trans people as predators instead of just human beings who want to live their lives.

In her attempt to defend herself against the TERF label, Rowling just ended up providing more solid evidence that she is one. She works hard to disguise her views as feminism and genuine concern for the wellbeing of all women, but relies heavily on a number unsubstantiated opinions about trans people that the community has been fighting against for years. Rowling sees herself as highly educated on transgender issues but she still fails to see how her views—and her insistence on using her huge platform to promote them—are hurting transgender people."
https://inmagazine.ca/2020/06/j-k-rowlings-history-of-transphobia/

It's telling that you post an opinion piece about the essay, one which uses language like 'cis' - clearly showing an adherence to gender ideology but not the essay itself

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/07/2026 11:43

Whisperingwaters · 16/07/2026 11:40

If you asked for something your ideology won't let you acknowledge that be on you.

You didn’t provide the quote to back up your statement because it’s a lie, and you know that full well, as does practically every other poster on this thread.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/07/2026 11:42

Seethlaw · 16/07/2026 11:34

@Whisperingwaters

I asked you for an example of JKR describing trans people as "mentally unwell violent sex predators".

You have utterly failed to do that. There's literally nothing in that extract you posted that comes even close to that.

Hint: you will never find her saying what you wrongfully accuse her of "incessant"ly saying, because she doesn't believe it, and thus has never said it.

And it’s mostly not even her words, it’s some shite TRA blog post that Whisper probably thinks is totally convincing. I’m sure it is in their echo chamber.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 11:41

Seethlaw · 16/07/2026 11:30

Hating the sin, yes, not the sinner.

Like I hate drunk driving because it's so selfish and dangerous, but I don't hate drunk drivers because I literally don't know them.

I don't know. For me, there's such a difference between hating what I do, and wanting to hurt me because of it, that I have a hard time even associating the two. Maybe it's because I grew up in a fundamentalist church, and I know without a doubt that my former church friends would hate what I have become, but would absolutely not want to hurt me? They would say hurtful things, sure, but intent matters, and I know their intent would not be to hurt me, only to help me, even if I disagree with them.

Eeh jumping to drunk driving as a comparison for being gay is.. a choice. I believe it's hateful to be homophobic just as I think it's hateful to be misogynistic, whether you claim to love the individual people or not. I'm not interested in coddling the cognitive dissonance of those who want to claim they're good and loving while they judge other people based on a magic man in the sky. I'm surprised this isn't a vet commonly held view amongst people who are feminist..the church has a lot of beliefs on women's purposes as well..

Whisperingwaters · 16/07/2026 11:40

Seethlaw · 16/07/2026 11:34

@Whisperingwaters

I asked you for an example of JKR describing trans people as "mentally unwell violent sex predators".

You have utterly failed to do that. There's literally nothing in that extract you posted that comes even close to that.

Hint: you will never find her saying what you wrongfully accuse her of "incessant"ly saying, because she doesn't believe it, and thus has never said it.

If you asked for something your ideology won't let you acknowledge that be on you.

Whisperingwaters · 16/07/2026 11:39

CornishDaughteroftheDawn · 16/07/2026 11:23

Lawful opinions don't make them any less hateful. Its perfectly lawful for a few major religions to renounce homosexuality but its still hateful.

And what I mean by this is that hate speech/rhetoric & injustice breeds hateful actions that shock horror even result in genocide.

So you are happy to denounce ‘major religions’ as hateful in their views against homosexuality and suggest that these hateful views lead to hateful actions including genocide.

Yet you still minimise the effect of Islamic terrorism even though it is a direct result of these hateful views.

And you further imply that it is inevitable that the general opinions of a former politician which were not manifested in her personal life at all caused her murder? In fact her kindness to individuals regardless of any facts of their lives was well known.

And you think you’re one of the good guys?

Yet you still minimise the effect of Islamic terrorism even though it is a direct result of these hateful views.

Oh I love this episode where they pretend its the religion & not resource thievery via endless wars that pisses people off! Play it again Bibi!

And you further imply that it is inevitable that the general opinions of a former politician which were not manifested in her personal life at all caused her murder? In fact her kindness to individuals regardless of any facts of their lives was well known.

Hateful rhetoric is known to set the unhinged off on a murderous spree. See: Charlie Kirk murder, Donald Trump assassination attempts & Nancy Pelosi's husband near murder.

Beowulfa · 16/07/2026 11:39

A Facebook friend recently posted something along the lines of "David Cameron: you can take your cancer sympathy request and shove it up yer arse!" Lots of likes from fellow progressive lefty-types.

He (Cameron) told the newspaper he wanted to use his platform to support a call by Prostate Cancer Research, a charity which counts Mr Jones - founder of private members' club chain Soho House - as a trustee, for screening to be offered to high-risk men.
The cancer is most common in older age - particularly among men over 75. Cases in the under-50s are rare. It is also more common in black men.
"I don't particularly like discussing my personal intimate health issues, but I feel I ought to," Lord Cameron said.
"Let's be honest. Men are not very good at talking about their health. We tend to put things off."
But he said: "I sort of thought, well, this has happened to you, and you should lend your voice to it."

I found my friend's response very revealing.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 11:37

WiddleWaWa · 16/07/2026 11:33

I don't think you shouldn't be in a loving relationship with a woman. I have been in 2 relationships with women (though my own personal opinion of myself in that situation probably wouldn't help my cause here)

I think as an adult woman you absolutely have the right to be in a relationship with whoever you choose and that in LAW you should be awarded all the same rights and protections as a heterosexual marriage.

However I don't believe that it would be appropriate for you to wed in a church and make the vows that are written for marriage between a man and a woman.
I believe that it would be Gods preference for you to be with a man but again that is nothing to do with me personally and the only reason I am saying that to you is in the conext of this being a discussion forum and I take you posting your circumstances as an invitation to talk about that.

I would never, ever approach that subject with you if we were friends in real life and would only enter this type of discussion if you brought it up. I don't believe it's my place to judge anybodies relationship choices.

I don't believe my religion is patriarchal. One of the most important figures in my religion is Mary, Mother of Christ.

I follow my own heart and interpret the bible through my own lense, which of course is going to be coloured by my own experiences, I am only human.

I'm not sure if its me you are refering to but if so, I am not 'queer'.

As I said there is no hate from me. 'Hate the sin, not the sinner' is a very widespread simplicity quote that is used to convey a complicated situation in a summary. I don't think it's acurate to my personal feelings. I don't hate you. I don't hate your lesbian relationship. There is zero hate.

I support lesbians in having safe spaces. I support them in having consenual relationships. In having marriages in law that protect their relationship and assets.

I just don't think a church is the right place for that ceremony to happen and everything else is between you and God when you eventually meet Him.
I don't know how he feels about your marriage, I know he loves you and that is all I need to know for me to understand that I should love you too and that you and your wife should have every legal opportunity and protection myself and my husband have.

Thanks, I did stop reading after a while because I didn't ask or care to hear your homophobic opinions to be honest. You're entirely entitled to be religious I just am not interested in your beliefs but I wouldn't vote against your right to have them or advocate for a cure for you. I don't believe in a God so I don't think there's any man in the sky who has a preference for me.😉

Bosky · 16/07/2026 11:37

Anne Widdicombe Song - Victoria Wood
"Victoria Wood with All the Trimmings" - Xmas 2000

♫♫♫♫♫
We're listening for the sleigh bells.
We're looking for the sleigh.
We hope this special person comes in time for Christmas Day.
Let's join in the magic of Christmas make believe.
Who do we all want to see on Christmas Eve?

Ann Widdecombe, Ann Widdecombe, that's who we want to see. (We agree)
Not Santa Claus, not Zoe Ball, not William Hague. He's too vague. (He is quite vague).

Who's the girl that gets us giddy? Eyes so blue and shoes so diddy.
Who's our favourite Tory biddy? (Hmm)
Give me A-N-N and E. W-I and double D. E-C-O-M-B-E spells Widdecombe.

By day, I'm the shadow home secretary.
But hey, deep down, you know there's so much more to me.
Ann Widdecombe, Ann Widdecombe, I sing, I dance, I lean to the light.
I'm truculent, I'm succulent, I am a star. (Yes you are, by gum you are).

We'll gather round to the festive sound of the carols of a distant choir.
As we raise a toast, what will we roast on the embers of an open fire?
(Ann Widdecombe, Ann Widdecombe) I'm like the suits I wear.
Unsquashable, unwashable, I can't relax, when in slacks.

As the children dream of a reindeer team and a figure in a coat of red.
Dare we divulge what is that bulge at the bottom of the children's bed?

It's Widdecombe, Ann Widdecombe.
I'm firm but fair and cool as a rule.
My gnattiness, my battiness, men can't resist.
Is she pissed? (She's round the twist.)

As the snowflakes fall and the neighbours call like the Christmases in days of Yore.
As they ring our bell, what will they smell coming through the open door?

Ann Widdecombe, Ann Widdecombe,
I'm woman through and through. (This is true)
Exuberant, protuberant, I inspire lust with my bust.
I'm not that fussed.

We'll start the lunch and we'll serve hot punch to the singers in the snowy drive.
And who's not chuffed to be plucked and stuffed and done at gas mark five?
Ann Widdecombe, Ann Widdecombe,
The people's chum, the bells of Christmas ring. (Ding-a-ding)

Inflackable, unsackable, is what it's thought of? (needs fixing)
Do-re-me-so-fa-so-fa-so-fa.
Do-re-me-so-faaaaaaaaa.
Ta.
♫♫♫♫

And while I'm on your thread OP, can't for the life of me think what made me think of this song

🤷‍♀️

Victoria Wood Political Correctness Gone Mad Song

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0X-dCNUxTY

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 11:36

pleuo · 16/07/2026 11:29

A mens' rights activist might argue that feminists who want men to take up less space and do more childcare are hateful because they are trying to suppress mens' true nature. But it's not hateful, it's a different worldview on what men 'are'.

I mean that's a complete different power balance no? Are these feminists politically fighting or voting to make these men do this childcare and do they have the support of the church and other institutions?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/07/2026 11:35

Whisperingwaters · 16/07/2026 11:30

You take it wrong. And this isn't even touching on her tweets.

"In an attempt to demonstrate her understanding of where transgender people are coming from, Rowling even says she too might have considered transitioning had the option been available to her as a teenager. “The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge, “ she writes. “If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.”

The belief that gender identity is a phase, a choice, or something that is influenced by other people is a stereotype that minimizes the struggles of anyone who experiences gender dysphoria. Transitioning isn’t easy but Rowling seems to be saying people can choose to transition on a whim simply because they think it’s more convenient to be one gender than another.

In her essay, Rowling goes on to reveal that she is a domestic and sexual abuse survivor and those experiences have made her even more focused on biology, “out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.”
Referring to the debate around public washrooms in particular, Rowling claims she’s concerned for the safety of cis women and girls. “When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman—and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones—then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside.”

Throughout her essay, Rowling talks about how easy it is for a biological man to become a woman in the eyes of the law and how potentially dangerous that could be for cis women. The fear that a large number of transgender women are just men who want to be able to use women-only spaces unchecked is a harmful stereotype that paints trans people as predators instead of just human beings who want to live their lives.

In her attempt to defend herself against the TERF label, Rowling just ended up providing more solid evidence that she is one. She works hard to disguise her views as feminism and genuine concern for the wellbeing of all women, but relies heavily on a number unsubstantiated opinions about trans people that the community has been fighting against for years. Rowling sees herself as highly educated on transgender issues but she still fails to see how her views—and her insistence on using her huge platform to promote them—are hurting transgender people."
https://inmagazine.ca/2020/06/j-k-rowlings-history-of-transphobia/

Mate, where’s the bit where she said what you claimed?

OneQuirkyPanda · 16/07/2026 11:35

She was a controversial divisive figure, so there will be controversial divisive opinions following her death.

I don’t think she deserved to be murdered or die, but not sure why it’s not acceptable for me or others to say they won’t grieve her or are not sad about her death? You can’t say one set of offensive opinions are acceptable, but others aren’t. Unless, someone is breaking the law or inciting violence it’s all just freedom of speech.

Anne very much exercised her right to freedom of speech, no matter how much she offended some people, and this is what many posters here are defending, so let others do the same.

Seethlaw · 16/07/2026 11:34

@Whisperingwaters

I asked you for an example of JKR describing trans people as "mentally unwell violent sex predators".

You have utterly failed to do that. There's literally nothing in that extract you posted that comes even close to that.

Hint: you will never find her saying what you wrongfully accuse her of "incessant"ly saying, because she doesn't believe it, and thus has never said it.

IdentifyingAsAWoollyMammoth · 16/07/2026 11:33

Yet despite being against gay rights and saying science will one day cure homosexuality, she also had gay friends. Despite her views and outspoken nature on a collective level, she could also be incredibly kind on an individual personal level and was a patron of a donkey sanctuary for over 20 years and took that seriously and helped raise and gave them large sums of money. She could also laugh at herself and not take herself seriously.

I disagreed with her on almost everything and I think it fairest to say she was a complex person.

What happened to her was abhorrent but I also believe what happened is being used as political capital by other members of Reform.

WiddleWaWa · 16/07/2026 11:33

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 10:58

I'm not sure I agree that disagreeing with someone's fundamental existence isn't hateful. To me my sexuality isn't an opinion of a lifestyle, it's there whether you live it or not. Disagreeing with something fundamental or suggesting or hoping it should be cured isn't neutral or loving, and is hateful to imo, because its completely rooted in the christian logic of "hating the sin not the sinner" which is how the defenses of her opinions sound here, "she hated my sexuality but not me" and I'm quite surprised that women especially queer women would give such an old fashioned patriarchal agenda the time of day. It's fine to admit her opinions were our of date, completely unfactual discriminatory and hateful without agreeing with murder.

I don't think you shouldn't be in a loving relationship with a woman. I have been in 2 relationships with women (though my own personal opinion of myself in that situation probably wouldn't help my cause here)

I think as an adult woman you absolutely have the right to be in a relationship with whoever you choose and that in LAW you should be awarded all the same rights and protections as a heterosexual marriage.

However I don't believe that it would be appropriate for you to wed in a church and make the vows that are written for marriage between a man and a woman.
I believe that it would be Gods preference for you to be with a man but again that is nothing to do with me personally and the only reason I am saying that to you is in the conext of this being a discussion forum and I take you posting your circumstances as an invitation to talk about that.

I would never, ever approach that subject with you if we were friends in real life and would only enter this type of discussion if you brought it up. I don't believe it's my place to judge anybodies relationship choices.

I don't believe my religion is patriarchal. One of the most important figures in my religion is Mary, Mother of Christ.

I follow my own heart and interpret the bible through my own lense, which of course is going to be coloured by my own experiences, I am only human.

I'm not sure if its me you are refering to but if so, I am not 'queer'.

As I said there is no hate from me. 'Hate the sin, not the sinner' is a very widespread simplicity quote that is used to convey a complicated situation in a summary. I don't think it's acurate to my personal feelings. I don't hate you. I don't hate your lesbian relationship. There is zero hate.

I support lesbians in having safe spaces. I support them in having consenual relationships. In having marriages in law that protect their relationship and assets.

I just don't think a church is the right place for that ceremony to happen and everything else is between you and God when you eventually meet Him.
I don't know how he feels about your marriage, I know he loves you and that is all I need to know for me to understand that I should love you too and that you and your wife should have every legal opportunity and protection myself and my husband have.

Seethlaw · 16/07/2026 11:30

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 11:23

That's fine by you, I happen to feel them actively fighting against my right to marry for years and hoping I can be cured one day as disagreeing fundamentally with my existence. Could you explain in more detail how it's not hateful when the basis of her belief is literally described as hating the sin?

Hating the sin, yes, not the sinner.

Like I hate drunk driving because it's so selfish and dangerous, but I don't hate drunk drivers because I literally don't know them.

I don't know. For me, there's such a difference between hating what I do, and wanting to hurt me because of it, that I have a hard time even associating the two. Maybe it's because I grew up in a fundamentalist church, and I know without a doubt that my former church friends would hate what I have become, but would absolutely not want to hurt me? They would say hurtful things, sure, but intent matters, and I know their intent would not be to hurt me, only to help me, even if I disagree with them.

Whisperingwaters · 16/07/2026 11:30

Seethlaw · 16/07/2026 10:36

@Whisperingwaters

I take it you don't have any example of "JKR & her incessant insinuations that trans people are mentally unwell violent sex predators" ?

As I thought. If anyone is spouting hate here, it's you.

You take it wrong. And this isn't even touching on her tweets.

"In an attempt to demonstrate her understanding of where transgender people are coming from, Rowling even says she too might have considered transitioning had the option been available to her as a teenager. “The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge, “ she writes. “If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.”

The belief that gender identity is a phase, a choice, or something that is influenced by other people is a stereotype that minimizes the struggles of anyone who experiences gender dysphoria. Transitioning isn’t easy but Rowling seems to be saying people can choose to transition on a whim simply because they think it’s more convenient to be one gender than another.

In her essay, Rowling goes on to reveal that she is a domestic and sexual abuse survivor and those experiences have made her even more focused on biology, “out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.”
Referring to the debate around public washrooms in particular, Rowling claims she’s concerned for the safety of cis women and girls. “When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman—and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones—then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside.”

Throughout her essay, Rowling talks about how easy it is for a biological man to become a woman in the eyes of the law and how potentially dangerous that could be for cis women. The fear that a large number of transgender women are just men who want to be able to use women-only spaces unchecked is a harmful stereotype that paints trans people as predators instead of just human beings who want to live their lives.

In her attempt to defend herself against the TERF label, Rowling just ended up providing more solid evidence that she is one. She works hard to disguise her views as feminism and genuine concern for the wellbeing of all women, but relies heavily on a number unsubstantiated opinions about trans people that the community has been fighting against for years. Rowling sees herself as highly educated on transgender issues but she still fails to see how her views—and her insistence on using her huge platform to promote them—are hurting transgender people."
https://inmagazine.ca/2020/06/j-k-rowlings-history-of-transphobia/

J.K. Rowling's History Of Transphobia - IN Magazine

The world is going through a lot right now. With a global pandemic still in full swing and Black Lives Matter protests happening all over the world every day, J.K. Rowling thought it would be a good time to remind everyone that she’s still transphobic....

https://inmagazine.ca/2020/06/j-k-rowlings-history-of-transphobia/

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 16/07/2026 11:29

Anyone defending those who are gloating about AW’s death demonstrates their own tendency to dehumanise people who disagree with them.

I have this situation underway in my workplace at the moment. The lovely (genuinely) left wing lovies serve in a community that’s moved from Labour to Tory to strongly Reform. We had the flags. Lots of Flags.
But how can you serve a community if you won’t try and understand why they feel as they do? Despising the people you are supposed to be supporting is a poor foundation.

pleuo · 16/07/2026 11:29

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 11:17

Uhh by literally arguing science could hopefully cure them? As though there's something wrong with someone being homosexual, as well as being active in blocking our right to marry. I see it the same a misogynist arguing they don't disagree or hate the existence of women, if you impose enough restrictions on women and perpetuate misogyny, you really can't claim to not hate women's existence you just believe xyz.

A mens' rights activist might argue that feminists who want men to take up less space and do more childcare are hateful because they are trying to suppress mens' true nature. But it's not hateful, it's a different worldview on what men 'are'.

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 16/07/2026 11:25

GwenPost · 16/07/2026 10:57

My critical faculties are fine thanks. But instead of personal remarks perhaps you can explain why it is 'admirable' to accept a set of moral values handed down by a religion without questioning any of it

Especially a set of beliefs that includes 'homosexuality is a sin'
Any discussion i've ever had with religious people boils down to 'because god said so'
I'm genuinely baffled by why this unquestioning acceptance is seen as a good thing

Very few Christians accept doctrine unquestioningly.

I assure you there is plenty of discussion, discernment, prayer, before individuals form their understanding of doctrine and their belief. And plenty more after. Hence the General Synod endlessly discussing these things.