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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe

481 replies

YourHateIsShowing · 16/07/2026 08:41

The Daily Express and others claiming the reaction to Ann Widdecombe’s death has somehow “exposed the left” as hateful, is nonsense as usual.

There is hate on the left. Without question. There’s also hate on the right. There are totally extreme nut jobs on both sides, too. Neither side has a total monopoly on either. But I think it’s pretty lazy to not see past the noise and understand the origin of hatred on any side of conflict. Context is everything. And most can agree with that when it comes to certain situations. As a mother, I understand the hatred a mother would feel towards a drunk driver who ended their child’s life through one careless selfish decision to drive home from the pub intoxicated. Or for worse crimes we know exist. I’m using these examples simply to make the case that our value systems should be consistent. Not to imply the level of harm is the same in all cases. That would be an overreach.

Ann Widdecombe was a deeply controversial politician. She was unapologetic about her views on immigration, LGBTQ+ rights, welfare and poverty. I remember her response when challenged about people who couldn’t afford a cheese sandwich: her answer amounted to, “Don’t have a cheese sandwich then.” I’ve watched her for years as a speaker on right wing conservative talking points; she dedicated her life to politics, but very often in ways that supported the structural degradation of groups of already marginalised people in society. So I loathed what she stood for and I make no secret of that.
And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

What I will say though, is this: what happened to her was awful. Abhorrent. What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things. Views that had influence. That doesn’t mean she deserved what happened to her. I feel for her, and her family. She would have been scared. She has my empathy for that. In spades. But I certainly don’t think others who were the focus of her intolerance should be expected to rewrite history or suppress honest criticism of the suffering she supported within society, out of respect for some weird convention that says we should only speak well of the dead. I don’t buy into that.

I’m sure Ann loved her family, had close friends, and watered all her house plants. I don’t see the world in terms of heroes and villains. We can be either at any time under different circumstances. But for those who’ve maybe read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you may also find truth in the words of Covey who said “we are what we repeatedly do”. If you repeatedly lie, guess what? You’re a liar.

There’s truth in that, even though I mostly see people on a spectrum and not in the binary. I still see the small compounding decisions they repeatedly make, and more importantly how those decisions impact others. We can also accept conflicting ideas, where good people commit a bad act, for good reason. It’s complicated.
But overall, some people leave the world a tiny bit kinder, fairer and more compassionate as a result of those compounding decisions met with their sphere of influence. Others leave it more divided, more fearful or less equal. Most of us fall somewhere in between. And most have little influence outside our immediate circle.
Ann had more than the average bod, so I hold her and other public figures to a higher standard. She didn’t stack up, for me.

Ann Widdecombe accepted and even defended policy that saw totally unnecessary poverty and hunger (children included), in the 6th richest country in the world. She stood against abortion in cases of rape. And she consistently fought against gay rights. She repeatedly contributed to this. This is who she was. What she stood for. And what those who support her stand for.

So what the right read as hatred among the left today, in the wake of this awful event that brought her world views into sharp focus, I read as an intolerance not of her skin colour, or her sexual orientation, or her nationality, but of all she stood for and against; all she was intolerant of in people without choices.

Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance explains this best, I think. If you’ve not come across it, it’s essentially characterised by an intolerance of intolerance itself. The difference is this: to be intolerant of someone’s skin colour, ethnicity, or other things they cannot change, such as their sexual orientation, or even level of poverty, certainly if you’re still a child born into it, is not the same as having an intolerance of those who punch down at them from a place of privilege.

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic and believed science should one day cure it, as if being gay were a disease to be eradicated. That’s a profound intolerance of something people cannot change. The same cannot be said of a worldview built on prejudice, bigotry or theocratic ideology. Those are beliefs. They’re decisions. They can be questioned, challenged and changed. Even after death. And if she and others like her directed more of their intolerance towards harmful ideas, rather than towards people for who they are, and for that which they cannot change, we’d have less hatred on both sides. But the root of that hatred, is glaringly obvious when you actually take the time to analyse it. Spoiler alert: it’s not coming from the left.

So this headline can get in the bin.
Where it belongs.

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe
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OneQuirkyPanda · 16/07/2026 16:06

PaperWalkAndTalk · 16/07/2026 15:45

The accusation is that her views were so extreme that they were so detrimental to gay people, they couldn't have been that detrimental if gay people were happy to be friends with her.

Stonewall were against gay marriage. Yet we have people alleging that opposition to such laws is homophobia.

Anne was quite clear in her views that gay relationships and families are inferior to heterosexual ones. This was backed by her voting record and her own statements. I’m not sure her having a few gay people who for whatever reason (gay people don’t all think and believe the same thing) were happy to be friends with her means her views and voting record were not harmful to gay people as a whole.

Unless, you think having your relationship and family being viewed and treated legally as inferior or not acceptable/valid is not harmful to someone?

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:05

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:03

If we accept democracy we have to accept that people will vote in a way that we don't approve of. A democracy requires opposing views to be aired before we accept the majority verdict. In the UK, usually described as a representative democracy, it is the decisions of Parliament which dictate what is legal or illegal. Some things are left to organisations to decide; on marriage, we have a civil marriage in law open to everyone, and a historical ability for the CofE to conduct wedding ceremonies and act as registrar, so a religious ceremony with a civil legal aspect. I would consider it governmental overreach to dictate to the CofE that the civil definition of marriage must override the religious definition.

I'm not sure why you think I don't understand the British political system and need to mansplain to to me simply because I disagree with you. I haven't said these people should not be able to vote in a way I disapprove of either, you are simply debating me needlessly because you don't want me to be able to freely her as homophobic or hateful.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:03

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:37

But I haven't objected to them saying it I've simply given my assessment on what they're saying. The difference is, even if I despise what they say.or believe, I wouldn't support any legislation to ban it or to ban their practicing their religion whereas they're actively banning people from equally marrying in a church for example or voting full stop to ban gay marriage. My objection to it is because it's my life and their opinions aren't just opinions they're votes and legislation and political power. Are you confused by why I would disagree with them as a gay woman? Do you think they perhaps their objection to gay people needs self examination given no one is making them being gay or even like it?

If we accept democracy we have to accept that people will vote in a way that we don't approve of. A democracy requires opposing views to be aired before we accept the majority verdict. In the UK, usually described as a representative democracy, it is the decisions of Parliament which dictate what is legal or illegal. Some things are left to organisations to decide; on marriage, we have a civil marriage in law open to everyone, and a historical ability for the CofE to conduct wedding ceremonies and act as registrar, so a religious ceremony with a civil legal aspect. I would consider it governmental overreach to dictate to the CofE that the civil definition of marriage must override the religious definition.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 16/07/2026 16:03

MarieDeGournay
But there's no evidence that she hated lesbian and gay people. Disagreeing with something while not hating the people who do not disagree with it is an important distinction.

In any case, "hate the sin but not the sinner" comes from St. Augustine, I think, and is very often a basic tenet of Christian faith: it fits with "love they neighbour as thyself".

AW was a Roman Catholic, and presumably therefore believed that repentance, confession of sin and making amends for wrongdoing redeems the sinner and brings him or her back to God's grace. So hating anyone, no matter how abhorrent she found something that person had done, would be a sin in her, because it would deny the grace of God for that person. And that I am sure she would see as a terrible thing to do.

Breakfastinthesunshine · 16/07/2026 16:01

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 10:58

I'm not sure I agree that disagreeing with someone's fundamental existence isn't hateful. To me my sexuality isn't an opinion of a lifestyle, it's there whether you live it or not. Disagreeing with something fundamental or suggesting or hoping it should be cured isn't neutral or loving, and is hateful to imo, because its completely rooted in the christian logic of "hating the sin not the sinner" which is how the defenses of her opinions sound here, "she hated my sexuality but not me" and I'm quite surprised that women especially queer women would give such an old fashioned patriarchal agenda the time of day. It's fine to admit her opinions were our of date, completely unfactual discriminatory and hateful without agreeing with murder.

But as far as I’m aware it was gay marriage that Ann was opposed to, not gay people

And this was from a philosophical/religious viewpoint as to what marriage “means”

The Catholic Church states that marriage is for the procreation of children

Im a Catholic and disagree with this, BUT I don’t hate those that do agree with it.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:49

PaperWalkAndTalk · 16/07/2026 15:45

The accusation is that her views were so extreme that they were so detrimental to gay people, they couldn't have been that detrimental if gay people were happy to be friends with her.

Stonewall were against gay marriage. Yet we have people alleging that opposition to such laws is homophobia.

Whose accusation was that exactly? I said I think they were hateful and homophobic. Gay people can have internalised homophobia just as women can internalise misogyny. You're giving the age old "they have black friends they can't be racist" argument.

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/07/2026 15:49

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:33

Please tell me how who I sleep with effects you on a micro or macro level, or anyone except me and my partner actually. I'd really genuinely love to know.

I wasn't referring particularly to the issue of sexual relationships......but more to the general principle that everything we do as an individual impacts upon others living in our immediate environment; or in our family; or in our society - at one level or another. Our 'freedoms' to do what ever we choose do impact upon others and can have ethical implications.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 16/07/2026 15:45

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 14:55

That's like saying if men are misogynistic why are so many women married to men? You seem to be under the illusion it's not possible to be a gay conservative, of course it's possible for her to have gay friends and for those gay people to also not support legal changes to gay rights. Gay people aren't a left wing monolith.

The accusation is that her views were so extreme that they were so detrimental to gay people, they couldn't have been that detrimental if gay people were happy to be friends with her.

Stonewall were against gay marriage. Yet we have people alleging that opposition to such laws is homophobia.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:44

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/07/2026 15:40

This is a discussion board, and I for one post here because I like to have interesting and well considered discussions .

Ethical considerations, for one, are not the exact same thing as a religious beliefs. Ethical considerations take into account not just an individual or their perceived or imagined 'rights', but also the wider societal and cultural implications of a particular action or set of actions or practices.I often hear people who are in favour of state assisted death referirng to those that have serious issues with that practice as being motivated by "religious belief''; but that is not necessarily the case at all.

Not all moral considerations have their root in religion.

I am aware, however whether one approves or disapproves of me having a procedure I may need medically due to ethical or religious reasons makes no difference when they're actively voting against my right because of their own personal considerations. I'm familiar with your views on abortion so I don't want to segue into that. I am not trying to change people's own moral considerations about their own lives I just want them to stay out of mine. I'm still curious to know how my sex life affects you on a micro or macro level and why your moral considerations have anything to do with me.

GwenPost · 16/07/2026 15:41

pleuo · 16/07/2026 14:09

The question of gay marriage is hotly contested and much debated in Christian churches. It's far from being an issue that is just unquestioningly accepted.

How is the debate framed though?
If it is
The rules of our religion say marriage should only be between man & woman but this is at odds with our 'Christian values'/old fashioned/what our members want so maybe we should change the rules
Then great, have the debate and get back to us. Religions can set whatever rules they want for themselves. And perhaps in the meantime we should change the law so that marriages in this religion dont count for legal purposes.

The real problem is that religions will insist on calling it a 'moral question' with all the 'homosexuality is wrong' implications of that. Which is damaging when the church still has a lot of influence

I dont think many, or maybe even most, Christians do unquestioningly accept the churches 'teachings' on homosexuality.

I dont think the ones that try and impose it on the rest of us via 'bringing their Christian values to Westminster' have thought about it enough though. But perhaps this is me begging the question ie If they thought about it enough they would realise religion shouldnt dictate laws when there is no other reason so they cant have given it thought

Can you explain why Christianity thinks homosexuality is even a moral issue? This is a genuine question but perhaps out of scope for this thread

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/07/2026 15:40

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 13:22

That's a long way to say some people are religious which I already understand. I think their beliefs have no basis in reality and I have zero time or patience to listen to any of them, or what their book has to say about me, my life, and any medical procedures I may have.

It is surely a waste of emotional energy to spend it fighting people all of the time or in directing negative emotion or personal hostility towards others for holding different views

Genuinely LOLing at this being directed at me for making a couple of comments on a thread and not aimed at those spending genuine emotional and physical energy rallying, voting, protesting etc against gay people.

I do wonder why you're finding it so hard to accept I have a different view given you claim to understand the importance for accepting them. I think she was homophobic, that's my view. You're welcome to disagree, but you seem to be spending a lot of emotional energy trying to change my mind.

This is a discussion board, and I for one post here because I like to have interesting and well considered discussions .

Ethical considerations, for one, are not the exact same thing as a religious beliefs. Ethical considerations take into account not just an individual or their perceived or imagined 'rights', but also the wider societal and cultural implications of a particular action or set of actions or practices.I often hear people who are in favour of state assisted death referirng to those that have serious issues with that practice as being motivated by "religious belief''; but that is not necessarily the case at all.

Not all moral considerations have their root in religion.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:37

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 15:29

OK, but I honestly can't see the difference. You and they are expressing opinions that they and you disagree with, and can take personally if you choose. Anyway, I'm not attempting to persuade you that I am right, but I am suggesting that your objection to what they say is worth your time examining, if you choose to do so.

But I haven't objected to them saying it I've simply given my assessment on what they're saying. The difference is, even if I despise what they say.or believe, I wouldn't support any legislation to ban it or to ban their practicing their religion whereas they're actively banning people from equally marrying in a church for example or voting full stop to ban gay marriage. My objection to it is because it's my life and their opinions aren't just opinions they're votes and legislation and political power. Are you confused by why I would disagree with them as a gay woman? Do you think they perhaps their objection to gay people needs self examination given no one is making them being gay or even like it?

ApplebyArrows · 16/07/2026 15:37

I don't agree with a lot of what Widdecombe believed, but serious, intelligent conservatives like her tend to hold their opinions for carefully considered reasons. They aren't just random bigots; they genuinely believe that their positions are the best thing for a flourishing society.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/07/2026 15:33

ChequerToRed · 16/07/2026 15:20

Ugh, I just cannot abide either the contemporary populist right or the equally populist ‘progressive’ left. Either holding the reins of power is positively alarming. The populist right has decended in to a yaa-boo-sucks celebration of its own idiocy, and the supposed ‘progressive’ left thinks it’s far too clever to be idiotic despite all evidence to the contrary. Both are dangerous, both can be violent, neither are fit to be in charge of even a small rural honesty box vegetable stand.
One would just steal everything and set fire to the box, the other would accuse the cucumbers of wrongthink and yeet the lot into a hedge because salad makes them feel unsafe.

I remain politically homeless. It’s all just South Park’s giant douche or shit sandwich.

Fully agree!

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:33

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/07/2026 15:28

Everything we do in pursuit of our own desires impacts others in some way; at both micro and macro levels.

Edited

Please tell me how who I sleep with effects you on a micro or macro level, or anyone except me and my partner actually. I'd really genuinely love to know.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 15:29

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:03

No, I'm sharing my thoughts on them given that's what the threads about. I completely understand why they think the way they do and I understand their believes so I don't think my assessment is a judgement in the way I'm using the word I.e. judging them as sinful or beneath me or wrong. I don't believe I have the right to tell them what my beliefs are or that my beliefs should dictate their actions or what rights they have. I think they seem very sad. I mean if you wanna get pedantic every opinion is a judgement but you'd have to be deliberately misinterpreting my point out of context....

OK, but I honestly can't see the difference. You and they are expressing opinions that they and you disagree with, and can take personally if you choose. Anyway, I'm not attempting to persuade you that I am right, but I am suggesting that your objection to what they say is worth your time examining, if you choose to do so.

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/07/2026 15:28

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 13:20

Well some of us are simply living our lives not trying to restrict anyone's freedoms so no it's not for everyone. I think if you think me posting an opinion on an internet forum is tearing down tolerance in society you're greatly overestimating my contributions.

Everything we do in pursuit of our own desires impacts others in some way; at both micro and macro levels.

ChequerToRed · 16/07/2026 15:20

Ugh, I just cannot abide either the contemporary populist right or the equally populist ‘progressive’ left. Either holding the reins of power is positively alarming. The populist right has decended in to a yaa-boo-sucks celebration of its own idiocy, and the supposed ‘progressive’ left thinks it’s far too clever to be idiotic despite all evidence to the contrary. Both are dangerous, both can be violent, neither are fit to be in charge of even a small rural honesty box vegetable stand.
One would just steal everything and set fire to the box, the other would accuse the cucumbers of wrongthink and yeet the lot into a hedge because salad makes them feel unsafe.

I remain politically homeless. It’s all just South Park’s giant douche or shit sandwich.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:03

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 14:58

I simply feel sorry for them for living such a life where they look externally for people to judge

Are you judging these people?

No, I'm sharing my thoughts on them given that's what the threads about. I completely understand why they think the way they do and I understand their believes so I don't think my assessment is a judgement in the way I'm using the word I.e. judging them as sinful or beneath me or wrong. I don't believe I have the right to tell them what my beliefs are or that my beliefs should dictate their actions or what rights they have. I think they seem very sad. I mean if you wanna get pedantic every opinion is a judgement but you'd have to be deliberately misinterpreting my point out of context....

hihelenhi · 16/07/2026 14:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/07/2026 12:48

I think people actually threatening violence have committed a criminal offence though. There are plenty of instances of that where the police haven’t been interested.

Yes, Herbert's messages (and many of his and his polycule's messages) have been menacing, to say the least. It's not just about being offensive, even grossly. Someone can say something I fundamentally disagree with, and find horribly offensive, and I'm not going to call the police on them. "I'm glad she's dead' is offensive but not violent. The next part of his message was celebrating violence, and if the police have looked at some of his other messages, well...

This is about celebrating and in some cases actively threatening violence in a way that represents potential offline danger to those targeted. It's not a one off with him or his friends. And frankly, a great many transactivists should have been arrested for their violent threats towards women before. They have acted with impunity because nobody cares about women being threatened, with rape or sexual assault, for example, as well as other forms of violence and death. They're disgusting but so is how this has been enabled.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 14:58

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 13:07

Well I'll absolutely face to while people are voting or lobby against my equal rights, yes. I'm aware of that already. Just as I'll probably be fighting misogynists and antichoicers all my life too. I don't see them as boogeymen though and just because I see them as hateful doesn't mean I'm scared by them? I simply feel sorry for them for living such a life where they look externally for people to judge, I always think caring so much about other people's lives and choices must mean someone is very unsatisfied with their own lot. I don't think it's my job to change their minds either.

I simply feel sorry for them for living such a life where they look externally for people to judge

Are you judging these people?

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 14:55

PaperWalkAndTalk · 16/07/2026 14:52

Considering that she had a lot of gay friends, I think her comments and views on gay people has been deliberately blown out of context.

Why would so many gay people be good friends with her if her views were so "harmful"?

That's like saying if men are misogynistic why are so many women married to men? You seem to be under the illusion it's not possible to be a gay conservative, of course it's possible for her to have gay friends and for those gay people to also not support legal changes to gay rights. Gay people aren't a left wing monolith.

Bosky · 16/07/2026 14:53

Whisperingwaters · 16/07/2026 13:54

Many people revert to their biological sex after living for some time in the opposite sex, and some alternate between the two sexes throughout their lives.

Lol. Cherry picking conveniently excluding a 'why' isn't the win you think it is.

"The largest study to look at detransition was the U.S. Transgender Survey from 2015 which was a cross-sectional nonprobability study of 27 715 TGD adults (4). This survey included the question “Have you ever de-transitioned? In other words, have you ever gone back to living as your sex assigned at birth, at least for a while?” The survey found that 8% of respondents had detransitioned temporarily or permanently at some point and that the majority did so only temporarily. Rates of detransition were higher in transgender women (11%) than transgender men (4%). The most common reasons cited were pressure from a parent (36%), transitioning was too hard (33%), too much harassment or discrimination (31%), and trouble getting a job (29%)."

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9516050/

It does not need a "why".

Firstly, "phase" is not synonymous with "whim".

Secondly, the author of that article chose to belittle JKR's comments about how she felt as an adolescent and misrepresented her as characterising all "transition" as a "phase", using the term pejoratively.

The simple fact is that adolescence is a whole series of phases. It's called growing up. For some people that includes a phase of identifying strongly with or as the opposite sex, wanting to be the opposite sex or feeing discomfort and distress about their sex. It is perfectly normal.

The commodification and medicalisation of normal puberty and normal adolescence is something that JKR says she would eagerly have subjected herself to had that option been available to her at that age.

Those stats on detransition you quoted as not going to age well now so many children have been gulled into believing that they were trans, rather than that they were experiencing the everyday angst of teenage years.

Want to talk about how and why AGPs cycle through repeated phases of binge and burn?

PaperWalkAndTalk · 16/07/2026 14:52

OneQuirkyPanda · 16/07/2026 14:24

What constitutes respect and decency is very subjective, I would say a lot of what she said, in particular towards gay people, was incredibly disrespectful, you would probably disagree or say it was her right to do so regardless.

I don’t think me as a lesbian saying I’m not sad she’s died or someone saying some people won’t be grieving her is unacceptable or shocking. I think it should be expected given her views and political history.

I agree that celebrating her death or saying you were happy she’s been murdered is in very poor taste and is highly offensive. However, my point remains that a lot of what she said was highly offensive and harmful to certain groups of people. So in my opinion you can’t defend her right to offend people under freedom of speech or religious beliefs, while saying other people shouldn’t be allowed to say offensive things about her and should either show her respect or stay silent.

You either believe in freedom or speech or you don’t, you can’t pick and choose who is allowed to be offensive based on your own beliefs or opinions. As long as nothing illegal was said people have every right to say things about her that you find offensive or disrespectful, just as she had every right to say things about gay people/poor people/immigrants that they found offensive or disrespectful.

Considering that she had a lot of gay friends, I think her comments and views on gay people has been deliberately blown out of context.

Why would so many gay people be good friends with her if her views were so "harmful"?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 16/07/2026 14:50

Bosky · 16/07/2026 14:32

She apparently thinks that "Islamic terrorism" is a new thing that is due to Israel.

There are a lot of people on the left whose idea of "historical context" is extremely limited geographically as well as in the temporal sphere.

Very distorted timelines too. I was talking to a guy who was railing about the Crusades and who clearly thought that the Middle East was all Muslim before the Christians muscled in throwing their weight around.

He was poleaxed when I explained that Christianity had been established in Middle East, North Africa and Europe for centuries before Islam emerged and that Mohammed was born over 600 years after Jesus was around.

It's so sad isn't it. So much human history and depth they aren't aware of. There's a huge blank space in their heads and they don't even know it.

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