Deeply distressing - article on rising number of girls in Afghanistan being sold into child marriage.

Yes, I can imagine that most men who have been raised in western culture would continue to be disgusted at the idea of abusing prepubescent children, but I can't help but think that, if the social order was significantly disrupted, a majority of men would quickly take advantage of the vulnerability of adult women and teenage girls.

I think a significant minority would be happy with it, but there are men who I think that would be appalled in reality. There are men out there who would be disgusted by the idea of living in a talibanesque environment. Most men would think trying to marry an 8yr old is genuinely vile.

I always wonder about the whole “would you watch them starve instead argument”. There seem to be plenty of men who can afford to buy children, so theres money for that. The truth is there seems to be a very big appetite for children in that country both girls and boys. No one is forcing anyone to buy a child to rape are they? This is a cultural norm. One wonders why the fathers don’t prostitute themselves first before offering up their children?

I think they know whats expected of them when a journalist comes along asking questions, they are used to foreign NGO’s, how many will say “I have too many girls and I get a good price for the young ones”. There are fathers in Afghanistan who are still trying to get education for their daughters, some secret ones were shut down, there are good people but the cultural norms are strong, afghans have historically bartered female children for anything from marriage to settling debts or resolving disputes. It is not new, people didn’t suddenly start selling their children, they’ve been doing it for centuries.

Also yeah I probably would rather starve to death next to my daughter than to sell her to a man who well probably kill her whether on purpose or by accident within a few years but not after torturing her.

My personal view is we should be offering asylum to any afghan girl, the men can go back, they will be fine.

Not sure if this should have a thread of its own so that more know there is an international petition:

International Declaration on Gender Apartheid and Its Destructive Consequences
https://www.projectresist.org.uk/news/international-declaration-on-gender-apartheid-and-its-destructive-consequences

The link you posted while saying Biden could stop it has this line :

July 24 — At a rally in Phoenix, Trump again boasts, “I started the move out of Afghanistan,” adding “I think it was impossible for him [Biden] to stop it, but it was a much different deal.”

Trump says that when he was president, in a phone conversation with the leader of the Taliban, he warned that after U.S. troops leave if “you decide to do something terrible to our country … we are going to come back and we are going to hit you harder than any country has ever been hit.” Trump says he believes the two “had a real understanding” but that after Trump left office “now they’re going wild over there.”

Yes. I can imagine that very easily. What do you think would happen, for instance, if a disaster wiped out all electronics and threw the world into instability? So that people globally were as hungry, desperate, and insecure (in terms of future safety, and survival) as they are in Afghanistan?

I absolutely believe that women in the western world would effectively lose all the rights afforded to us, and a significant majority of men would quickly (over months) make the most of women and girls' helplessness and vulnerability.

I think a good 20% of men wouldn't, and possibly 10 or 15% more wouldn't be overly keen but would pretty much go along with it, but most would actively enjoy it.

And, incidentally, the men of the US. Several states in America have no minimum age for marriage eg California! In several US states the approval of the parents is enough. Appalling in this day and age but little said about it.

I do think this is only going to get worse for the women / children of Afghanistan. Aid donors have pulled away as aid is being diverted to the Taliban and its supporters. The U.S. has permanently terminated food aid since 2025. The world food program is currently feeding 1 in 9 of 14 million Afghans who are in danger of suffering malnutrition but are looking at a massive funding shortfall going forward plus continuing difficulties being able to operate.

I think as poverty continues to bite the number of child marriages wil rise.

Most British men (or men of any race or nationality) might like the idea of forty-two virgins fawning over them and sexually available at all times, but it seems absolutely probable that desire would exceed performance; most of them probably wouldn't be able to get it up after the first three or four, in some cases fewer.

And there is no mention of Viagra in the Koran.

Quite. Same as most British men abhor the gang raping of minors that has been so prevalent in the Pakistani community in our country.

It took us in this country centuries to alter our culture so that women ceased to be the property of men (father, husband, sons) from the cradle to the grave; expecting Afghanistan to move faster than we did is perhaps a little optimistic. If they haven't moved towards a more equitable society by 2626, that's time to start to worry that they can't manage to change on their own and need our paternalistic (or maternalistic?) help with changing their culture.

It’s best not to dwell on this too much because ultimately there is ZERO chance of it ever changing because these practices, attitudes and behaviours are ingrained so deeply into their culture that it will take generations to eradicate. It’s a tragedy and curse for the females to be raised under such brutal conditions, all we can do is hope some find a way to escape somehow.

If you read any analysis of all about what happened you can see that “the west” is not solely blamed. The US really, genuinely attempted to try and improve Afghanistan and within that they did a lot for women’s rights while also getting a lot wrong because the government they backed was also corrupt.

The reasons for Afghanistan today are complex including other regional interferences and no analysis concludes otherwise.

This

What fantasy world do you live in

And what sad, bitter world do you inhabit? Always insisting that men are the enemy. Don't you know any kind, loving men who are devoted to their wives, daughters, mothers or do you think it's just a facade and they all want to rape, dominate, abuse and degrade women and girls?

I have no need to educate myself (what a patronising thing to say) about the evil some men do the world over including the UK. I have a 21 year old daughter and I've had to raise her to be vigilant around men, even with her lovely boyfriend and male friends. It is terrifying if you let it consume you but I refuse to turn against half the human race.

Your bizarre "patriotic" nonsense is like some dreadful Victorian tub thumping colonial flag waving

I'm stating that our society does not permit men to legally treat women the way Aghan men do. Obviously some break the law but generally we don't have men selling their daughters, men wanting to buy young girls or boys, men insisting their wives are repeatedly pregnant, beating and raping them into submission. The difference between you and me is I don't think the majority of British want to do that. You insist they do.

Tell me, can you not be on FWR if you are GC but don't hate all men?

What fantasy world do you live in.

Do you read the papers or listen to the news.

Do you condescend to come down out of your ivory tower and for instance engage with the reality of male violence in the UK.

Why dont you for instance educate yourself about the work of rape crises centres and women's aid refuges.

Your bizarre "patriotic" nonsense is like some dreadful Victorian tub thumping colonial flag waving.

Why bother to be on a feminist thread primarily about the situation of women in the UK if you think women in the Uk have nothing to fear from British men?

Bewildering.

If I were the man, I'd stop impregnating my poor wife after baby no. 2.

If you were going to watch some of your children starve to death, what would you do to prevent that?

I don’t think that any of this is ‘what anyone would do’ or anything like that, but marriage has historically been the way that girls and women get fed and housed, in return for sex and raising children. In every single country in the world at some time.

If you lived in a society where you have let’s say twelve children, and you have resources to feed maybe two, and you’re facing watching anything between eight and all of them slowly die off of starvation and disease over the winter, and someone comes to you and offers to buy your daughter for marriage so that she is at least fed, alive and housed with a social role, and you have money to get the whole family through another year and maybe even buy an animal that produces milk and manure to give you a fighting chance of a future, are you really going to tell me that you certainly would not? History says that most of us would.

Yes that’s the truth. That’s why as a society we developed marriage / rule of law / Christianity / social approbation of sex outside marriage to rein in the worst instincts of men. We have merrily since the 60s been dismantling these constructs in the name of freedom before the awful realisation dawns…. The alternative is worse.

I believe absolutely that the majority of men would prefer a return to 1950s way of marriage and this is simply another level beyond that

I don't believe the majority would.

I believe many many men, given the chance would behave like absolute dogs. I can't quantify it. I believe it would be the majority put it that way.

Again, I don't believe the majority would.

I do not like the messages within this religion. Not peaceful, not in line with Western values and absolutely concerningly promoting child marriage.

Which brings me back to my original point. Afghan men are the problem, not the West and not British men.

I believe many many men, given the chance would behave like absolute dogs. I can't quantify it. I believe it would be the majority put it that way.

Totally agree.

Even the growth of the popularity of some online influencers and the bonding together of incels show how then the line is that keeps women from being abused.

So many recent stories of "nice, middle class men" conspiring together to exploit women.

Not forgetting all the women trafficked into the UK. Why is that a profitable business for the traffickers.

Trigger Warning; reference to horrible programme re child abuse.....

So; 'Not My Nigel' needs to be inserted here as my acknowledged preface... And of course; "Not All Men'...

I would never have imagined the number of men, including ' professional ' men that would turn up to rape a drugged and unconscious woman in her bed - (Madame Pelicot.) This, in a middle class suburban Western society.

I couldn't believe that someone like Bill Gates had drugged his wife to ensure she didn't catch his STD's; procured following his extensive sexual liaisons behind her back. How many more sordid examples of male depravity are there. There will be too many to list and many we won't even know about.

I am not able to quantify how many men are Nigel's and how many are not. How many men are Bill Gates level and how many Mr Pelicot, and then lower into child abuser territory.

But, as I get older, as I learn more, yes, I do believe British men, in their plenty could become accustomed to a certain way wherein this was normalised.

We won't know how many are truly thinking in ways I wouldn't even want to imagine. What I feel certain of- is that we absolutely underestimate it significantly.

How many women have no clue what's going through the minds of their husbands. I dread to think tbh.

I agree with the very insightful post from @GarlicAnywhere . I do try and separate religion from other possibly more relevant contributory factors. Poverty, education, cultural indoctrination/ norms do feed these things.

Certain ways of existing / traumatic lives are going to increase the chance you lose all empathy, develop a personality type that is more sociopathic and therefore devoid of empathy. Combine this with the opportunity, then many in places like Afghanistan could do this.

I believe it does fulfil the natural desires of many men to have very young, nubile women. I believe absolutely that the majority of men would prefer a return to 1950s way of marriage and this is simply another level beyond that.

Religious indoctrination in my view does play a part.

I am anti all religion and try to not dwell on this too much. Yet, I will say it - and call me Islamaphobic all you like; does the holy book not have a prophet marrying a 12 year old girl? Does that not massively thumbs up similar practices? I do not like the messages within this religion. Not peaceful, not in line with Western values and absolutely concerningly promoting child marriage.

I watched the Dancing Boys of Afghanistan and was absolutely horrified and traumatised after seeing it. The way one man laughed as he described one young boy being used over and over like a rag doll has scarred my mind forever.

I believe many many men, given the chance would behave like absolute dogs. I can't quantify it. I believe it would be the majority put it that way.

It’s horrific. Will listen to the link, thank you.

Just a reminder of how many thousands of very young girls being sold and raped Gladstone encountered on the streets of respectable Victorian London. That the last few US states to allow child marriage are only in very recent years outlawing it. What is not socially proscribed, legally prosecuted and fought against will be done to girls by men.

I have found sources I trust that say subscribing to the Afghan Times and donating to the Linda Norgrove Foundation are both trustworthy routes if you have money to spare that you want to direct towards Afghan women.

It's happened in every country, including this one. It has less to do with Islam than a combination of factors:
Poverty;
Undervaluation of girls/women;
Male appetite for young bodies.

A culturally accepted view of women and children as property of the male feeds an acceptance of this as a solution to money problems. But we're all aware that this view persists through most societies, regardless of religion.

Afghanistan's notorious for the sale of boys, as well. There are probably fewer men with money and an appetite for young male flesh but it is not rare.

Legislation, with enforcement, is really the only thing that stops men buying & selling people as their needs dictate. Continued enforcement likely does increase social revulsion for this trade - but it would pop back up again if men felt desperate enough. Doesn't matter which gods, if any, they pray to.

Most British men wouldn't want this.

Can you really imagine Dave saying "Steve, you can forget about that £50 you owe me if you let me marry your 13 year old daughter. And your 5 year old will do nicely for my son when he's finished his GCSEs."

And then raping the daughters until they're pregnant over and over again, almost dying giving birth.

Really?