The two questions they all need to be asked

Yes I agree @Pingponghavoc

It's interesting because not many users are saying these men pass.

I think some comments are written within the constraints of reddit. As in 'some women believe x...which is wrong, but'.

Lots of trans logic - their feelings about being a women are genuine and not externally influenced, but women feelings are not genuine and based on what they read in right wing press.

Also women are wrong to blame all men for the actions of some, but TW need space away from men.

Men are saying they know they haven't had surgery or taken drugs yet, but use women's spaces. Then others are saying 'cis men' wouldn't go to the trouble and pain of transitioning to use women's spaces.

I know its different redditors, but it does show how the ideology isnt consistent. Its just men need to use women only spaces, but women dont need space away from men.

This is encapsulated by the silly little man in the video I posted who Michelle Dewberry is arguing with. She asks him repeatedly why she should be expected to get changed in front of a man. He has absolutely no answer except “but trans women are women”.

There are indeed some interesting comments there.

However, "If you are a cis woman who feels threatened by trans women, I think that is something you need to work through, not a reason to police trans women in your spaces." Shades of Mridul Wadhwa saying that "bigoted" rape victims who didn't want transwomen male counsellors should be reeducated: "please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices".

So many of the comments basically come down to, "TWAW so women there is no logical reason for women to be scared," Like this one: "I think they view trans women as men. So they feel like its appropriate to treat trans women like they do men - aka excluding them from various things, socializing in a certain way, etc." Well, yes, duh.

There are a lot of deletions of course, which probably said the kind of things most of us would say.

Think it depends on what device you're using. I don't see a slide bar, so grateful to @OhSister for posting the complete questions.

What TW want is, if single sex spaces exist, they are admitted by default.

What that means in practice is for women to campaign for or build the services based around sex differences, and then use switched to gender. Where gender can mean sex, or whatever TW want it to mean.

TRA response to the SC ruling is never that we need to build up services based around gender. Its always sex but with TW inclusion after its been built, or burn it all down and have unisex.

The questions to ask is why the switch from sex to gender. And if we were to design spaces and opportunities based around gender, what is the need and what will these spaces look like?

Actually, Mapletree, I once saw a well-known TRA get asked that question. The answer was something like "gender is the only thing you can identify into, obviously".

The answer is: because, duh!
The other answer is that if enough men with enough money and power behind them wanted to be treated as black, they would make that happen in the same way as men have got people to accept that they are female. But there are different power dynamics at play, so it would be interesting to see how an attempt to do this would pan out.

Why is being a woman or man the only thing a person can have an inner sense that they are? Why can I not have an inner sense that I am black, or Tibetan, or disabled, or twenty-five, and have that accepted as reality, since I am the only person who can know who I am truly am?

From "The New Feminist": Who gets to be a woman? Why the politics of exclusion in women-only spaces is a problem - The New Feminist

As far as I can see, the argument is that transwomen are more marginalised and at risk than "cis women" and they are truly women, so should be accepted into single sex spaces.

Maybe they would accept you having a menopause group open to "cis women" only, since transwomen don't go through the menopause - who knows. But if it's anything more general than that, I doubt it. A key point is that these people are coming from the position that transwomen really are women, and are no threat to "other women", or not in significant numbers. And remember - transwomen suffer more than cis women, so in arguing to keep single sex spaces single sex, you're using your "victimhood" to oppress a more vulnerable group.

There's a discussion on Reddit on whether women who don't want transwomen in their spaces genuinely feel threatened by the presence of transwomen. Some interesting trans perspectives:

When cis women try to exclude trans women from their spaces, citing safety, do you think their fear is genuine, or do you think they're pretending to be fearful of trans women? : r/AskFeminists

However it happened.......... its really clever!
Im so so tired of all this nonsense.
Women = adult human female.
Men = adult human male.
Facts are facts. End of debate.
<gavel>

It seems an academic has written on this, but this is just an introductory essay: CIS-WOMAN-PROTECTIVE ARGUMENTS - Columbia Law Review

I've seen different arguments online. There's probably fuzziness around whether people see a distinction between gender and sex. I suspect that lots of people don't think about it too deeply.

1. The only way you can know whether someone is a man or a woman is to ask them. They are the only authority on that question and whatever they say must be accepted and acted upon, including allowing them into a naked women-only spa.
2. Sex is very complex. It's made up of lots of different things, and there's probably a lot we don't know about yet, which would help us to understand transness. Our chromosomes are only one part of it, and we know that there are loads and loads of people who don't have the standard chromosomes, so chromosomes are pretty meaningless really. Our sexual organs and functions are only one part of it, and there are lots of people who don't have some of those anyway. Our brains are more important, and we know that in scans transwomen have been found to have brains resembling cis women's brains. Transwomen are very different from men - they're softer, kinder etc and I always feel safe with a transwoman. They're on female hormones, have breasts, may have had surgery, wear dresses and makeup and are interested in female pursuits. They feel more at home with the girls than the boys. They are physically weaker than men (because of the hormones). All of this adds up to them being closer to cis women than to men. We should respect who a person really is, and not focus on their sexual organs like Terfs do.

Michelle Dewberry and some woke bro, he has no answer to the question that she puts to him repeatedly and just resorts to chanting the holy mantra.

https://x.com/michelledewbs/status/2075207784346296379

But what is the difference between a man and a transwoman?

I realise I'm asking you to steelman here but what would they actually say? I'm sure they would think 'but I just am' because they think they are the most special and aren't like the other (trans) girls. What argument would they present?

...other then 'I just feeeeel like it'

Sorry, I missed that! A man knows that he isn't a woman. A transwoman knows that she's a woman. She feels like a woman and thinks like a woman. She's on female hormones, etc etc.
I saw a man online who said that he'd just started taking hormones and had made no other changes (he still presented as a man). He reckoned that starting taking hormones already made him 10% female.

Yes, absolutely, and this.

Triple backticks?

 To create a fenced code block in Markdown, wrap your code in triple backticks (```) on separate lines before and after the text.

It's obvious to us, and I'm with you, but a lot of people seem to have downgraded these kinds of "women's issues" as trivial in the great scheme of things. Young woman haven't consciously experienced them yet, men don't notice them and don't care, or actively want to bring women down a few pegs and enjoy their natural born superiority. Transwomen not being fully acknowledged as women is far higher priority to them. That's where the brownie points are.

Thanks for typing it out. Honestly, OP, these questions are probably

a. too complicated for those who are already determined to be on TRSOH, because if they could, or were willing to, think more deeply about this issue, they would never have come to the conclusion that women don't deserve their own rights in the first place (if that makes sense?); and

b. too open to "manipulation" by those who don't want to, or pretend not to, understand the questions or the need to ask these questions.

I'm not saying these questions shouldn't be asked, I just don't think they'll get you much further than "What is a woman" ever did.

There's one of the usual suspects on another thread, talking about "subjective reality" as though that's not an oxymoron. That's the level of "intelligence" or wilful ignorance/stubbornness that we're dealing with.

I hope that makes sense of what I thought. It's too hot for me to think about this any other way!

But you didn't address MY question.

What is the difference between a MAN and a transwoman??

It isn't clothes
It isn't surgery
It isn't 'looking' feminine
It isn't behaviour

What is it then???