Hilary Cass sent a document to every single MP and Peer, justifying and defending the puberty blockers trial

Agree @TwoLoonsAndASprout @1984Now @MrsOvertonsWindow

This is why, as well as writing letters, discussing, arguing, contributing, sharing information, suing, and pushing back, WE WATCH. The ones who want this to be happening won't disappear, and we need to be ready for wherever they pop up next, in whichever guise they put on, with whatever tactics they decide to use next.

Was chatting about this (as you do) with an "alternative" lifestyle woman (Wicca, astrology) who works in showbiz surrounded by luvvies, who's had it with a particular man in her workplace who's always behind her in the toilet (strange, that) going on about how much better a woman he is than her (and by extension, every other woman on the planet). Yada yada.
She agreed with me, that despite her openness to multiple ways of living, his presumption of female ID steps on so many tripwires, almost every woman on the team feels at least harassed, at worst, fearing for their safety.
So yes, child safety boundaries have been damaged in so many ways (to the point so many just don't see, or ignore, the risks of the PB trial), but liberal societal mores are also crushed.
Because transsexual men have gone from a niche lifestyle choice in the past, just about tolerated but not cherished or championed, because of its inherently incongruity and issues on female safety/comfort/child's rights to absolute protection, to an argument about social/human rights.
Once men who were roundly criticised for exercising personal choices inimical to broader societal functioning if those rights were promoted over women's/children's rights, were then promoted to their kink being an essential human right where women's and children's rights were butted up against, who was going to win the war of volume and aggression to have rights come out on top? Well, it was always going to be men.
And the laser focus that the most motivated men always bring to a project meant that men belittled in the 70s walking around a supermarket in their twin set and pearls, have a half century later wrangled liberal society their way, in their own image.
And what better way to embed this than to create "the trans child" that the Be Kind and Suicidal Empathy broader civic society were only too eager to subscribe to.

These seem no longer in the archive?
Were they there earlier Betty?

It just has come to me and I write it here so it can be explained, refuted or corroborated.
All this “reducing women to their biology” that TERFS are accused of when saying TWANW is really what the trans ideology is actually doing by trying to replicate that biology on the bodies of the opposite sex.

so, if its not about biology, why insisting on altering biology with a very high cost? What about just be you and pick and mix stereotypical characteristics but stay with your sex. Isn’t that what the androgynous trend in the 60s was all about?

leave kids alone!

selecting candidates who have persistently, insistently & consistently maintained GD long term and yet, we still have young adults who swore blind as teenagers they were true trans, often for years, then desist as they got older. Is two years between 8-10 years or 9-11 years really long enough to be ‘persistently’? Putting aside the impossibility of a 10 year old giving consent, are those two years really sufficient to make potentially life changing decisions?

It is not ethical to test drugs on children, but we are in a situation where it is happening anyway and the only way to stop it long term is to prove how unsafe puberty blockers really are.

The problem here is that the trial will not recruit those children whose parents have already been given PBs without medical oversight. That might have been an acceptable trial.

Instead, they will recruit parents who may well have not secured off licence black market PBs for their child but they will give consent because it is a NHS run trial and they trust the medical professionals.

For the life of me, I read the arguments for why it should run and yet still do not understand how this unethical experimentation on children can go ahead.

Two great posts. Thank you
The idea that society has enabled and allowed the men pushing the notion of the trans child to have such power - especially over child health care - shows how flimsy our child safeguarding measures are.

In the face of the demands from these men - and we've seen countless of them on here arguing that children must have pbs for a myriad of reasons - "...the doctors then devised a treatment which involved taking prepubescent gender confused patients, and stopping them going through male puberty, in the hopes that they would grow into adult transsexuals who passed better as women..."

To repeat @1984Now :
"The only good I can see is that the energy for this arrow of history is dissipating, but this group of men, feral and backed into a corner, are conspiring to continue the destruction any way they can".

(note that this is not an issue for trans-identifying women - testosterone is pretty powerful in that regard)

TwoLoons I agree with your post but regarding women passing as a man, I think it brings different issues. Testosterone may (though it doesn't always) give facial hair, a partial change in body shape and a deeper voice, enough to be convincing to a degree. But no female is ever going to have a convincing, functional penis via either testosterone or surgery, and that's pretty important in relationships especially if you want a relationship with someone who is attracted to men. I think (based on various first-person accounts) many trans-IDing people struggle a lot not just with not passing externally, but with not really being seen as the opposite sex, even by those who pretend to think they are. And that's because they know they haven't actually, and can't ever, really have what the opposite sex has, physically - for both TW and TM.

What can end up meaning these days is that a ‘tomboy’ is really trans, and a boy who likes drawing, pretty colours, fashion and dancing is trans.

This is one of the most cogent things I've ever read on MN, or anywhere else, re this subject.
It's the bookend to the entirely artificial and confected need to create the concept of "the trans child". Concept it most certainly is, because no-one is born in the wrong body.
"Give me the trans child and I'll give you the transexual man".
What's crazy is that a male kink has, like Japanese knotweed, been deliberately planted in Western liberal civilisation, allowed to grow and spread and suffocate society.
And across the world, nations are sacrificing their children ostensibly to be kind and to affirm happiness in those kids, but in reality, without so many noticing, to be kind to men with kinks and affirm their happiness.
I can't think of any societal warp that comes anywhere near close to a small subset getting what they wanted from the larger group literally not seeing this.
The only good I can see is that the energy for this arrow of history is dissipating, but this group of men, feral and backed into a corner, are conspiring to continue the destruction any way they can.
Reality and sanity still need vigilance, and protection, and bloody mindedness from JKR all the way down to us.

The fact that this study is specifically designed to end before the more horrendous effects of the drugs kick in and thus will not be part of the results is especially evil.

We know 2 things from the documented history of Puberty Blockers.

They are trying to allow males to pass by keeping them smaller adults and hoping that the more testosterone driven development is abated.

They are petrified of having butch lesbians for daughters and would rather have a pretty son instead.

As I mentioned earlier, surely clinicians have some experience of helping boys with XY 5ARD, who have been brought up as girls, reconcile to their sex? Is there really no-one who can help the fictional 'Jo', without trying to turn him into an imitation of a woman?

Who's going to insure this nonsense?

Let's get all the existing data together (even if it means interviewing every child/now-adult that's been given PB ever)
And then let's look at that data openly.

Thanks. I was trying not to become blasphemous there, and you have lowered my blood pressure about ten points.

In the case of the 11 year old boy it is to help him to continue disguising himself as a girl ( begun at 2 1/2 by his parents), just like his parents have made sure he has all his life up until more recently. Now he is growing up, obviously it isn’t so easy. Hence he has been hiding in his room so no one can see him.

This is very unlikely to be a ‘pause’ for him.

The horrific, abusing parents will get a lot of coddling by trial attention and a nice boost for their Transhausens by proxy (ex Tavistock Dr Azeem Hakeem coined phrase).

Quick point, even WPATH in the Standards of Care said 'do not do this on children'.

When Eli Coleman who had been in a job where he was giving these drugs to sex offenders and paedophiles in jail, took over suddenly it was fine to block kids puberty and get them onto cross sex hormones.

That was about 25 years ago.

And since then this has been given to kids around the world.

And Cass found ZERO evidence that is actually helped people, indeed some of the people were more suicidal after than before.

And nobody seems to want to do the most obvious thing, which is to actually ask detransitioners what happened. I mean, if I'd treated someone and they'd had terrible results I'd want to know about it but anyone doing that is as ostracised and demonised as much as the detransitioner themselves.

We do not need to do it to MORE kids.

NullaEffugium
what has been studied is suicide risk to trans young people subjected to delayed or refused gender affirming treatments

Is this better studies than the self-selecting one carried out by one of the trans-affiliated publications in which self-declared-trans adolescents were asked if they had ever thought of suicide? I looked at that one (which had a small sample size as well) and thought "every single person my age whom I knew when I was between thirteen and eighteen had at some point contemplated suicide and what would be the best, easiest, least painful, least anti-social (or alternatively most harmful to others particularly the parents who were obviously responsible for our pain) way to do it". I personally favoured lots of aspirin, a hot bath and slashing my wrists (down, not across) with a Stanley knife: likely not to be too bothersome for me, and easy to clean up afterwards by simply pulling the plug out of the bath.

I would be utterly amazed if it were not the case that most adolescent "trans" people considered the matter of suicide if the world was nasty to them and wouldn't let them have their own way. And since the world is always nasty to adolescents and won't let them have their own way, well.

Is there any real, unbiased evidence that actual suicide (as opposed to what I would call "I hate you! I never asked to be born! I'll kill myself and then you'll be sorry!" spontaneous outbursts of powerful feeling) is more common among trans than non-trans adolescents?

As I understand it, there is evidence showing that suicide is more common among people who have transitioned than among those who want to and for whatever reason are unable to. Do you have links to the studies that show otherwise?

Yes, I know this. But those that do it need to admit it.

But they won’t because they know “is it ethical to sterilise/make infertile children so they look better as adults?” is not only incredibly weak it is malevolent.

The thing that is being treated with PBs is passing.

The original Dutch protocol came about because Dutch doctors observed that their adult male transsexual patients were still suffering mental health issues, even after so-called sex change surgeries.

The doctors, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, decided that this lack of mental health improvement was because the patients didn’t “pass” well enough as women. And they didn’t pass well enough because they had gone through male puberty.

So, the doctors then devised a treatment which involved taking prepubescent gender confused patients, and stopping them going through male puberty, in the hopes that they would grow into adult transsexuals who passed better as women (note that this is not an issue for trans-identifying women - testosterone is pretty powerful in that regard).

The whole “time to think” argument was retro-fitted onto the protocol because it sounds much more ethically valid than “we want to make more convincing transsexual women.”

The point of puberty blockers has never been a child’s mental health.

But then, if Cass carefully vets their candidates children such that she/they have found a way to identify those who will become ‘true trans’ adults, why on earth the need for PBs? Just let them progress to CSHs and surgery asap.

Yes!! This. This.This!
We need to keep coming back to this question.
Everything else is just taking everyone too far away from this.

Jackie Green, the lad that only said he was a lass to get his toys back?

He didn't have any diagnosis, his mum bought puberty blockers off the internet.

The point that all the fans of this experiment on children repeatedly miss (or deliberately ignore) is that these are physically healthy children.

💯

It comes back to my earlier question that remains unanswered. What is being treated? What is the condition that desperately needs this treatment? Why has it been decided that THIS is the treatment for that condition and not something else?

The point that all the fans of this experiment on children repeatedly miss (or deliberately ignore) is that these are physically healthy children. They don't have cancer or other life limiting illnesses.
They have a significant mental health issue and likely other co morbidities such as eating disorders, anxiety, self harm, depression. In addition, those like the mythical Jo, have parents who not only failed to safeguard them from toddler age onwards but may actually have subjected their young child to emotional abuse by pretending to them from their earliest years that they were really the opposite sex

Odd how so many keen advocates for experimenting on children (including Cass) are supremely disinterested in the evident safeguarding issues surrounding so many of these children.

The study that you have linked to does not show what you claim. It was a paragraph within that study, that was referencing other studies:

GnRHa-based pubertal suppression is reversible, but it also pauses maturation of germ cells, which could affect fertility potential (21-23). In children treated with GnRHa, 43 of 49 patients had a decrease in testicular volume (24). Similarly, a study of 87 girls with precocious puberty while on GnRHa showed a decrease in ovarian and uterine size during treatment, which subsequently increased in size with resumption of menstruation approximately 1 year after discontinuing therapy (25).

The girls with precocious puberty are a totally different cohort to the girls with GD anyway.