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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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EssexLounger · 25/06/2026 16:54

There aren't really laws around gay marriage, there are laws around same-sex marriage.

Discrimination laws around homosexuality don't revolve around the victim being homosexual, but rather a belief that the victim is perceived to be homosexual. Heterosexual people can be victims of homophobia too

Really most laws don't require any evidence of homosexual attraction.

fromorbit · 25/06/2026 16:49

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 25/06/2026 16:21

Very interesting. They are horrified there is a medical exemption.

Hopefully this opposition from the TA side will help undermine the bill.

Shortshriftandlethal · 25/06/2026 16:46

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 14:57

Nobody wants to see extreme and cruel practices imposed on trans people either.

No one decent, anyway.

The problem with determining what is "cruel and excessive" when it comes to a trans identity' is that it is as vague and undefinable as the term 'trans identity' itself. Is it cruel or extreme, for example, to remind people that they remain the sex they are; or is a non believer simply refusing to use false pronouns also cruel and excessive?

Nobody wants for people with trans identities to be subject to 'corrective rape', or be beaten, held captive, or forcefully marrried off to a stranger. That is the sort of cruel practice that is being referred to when it comes to same sex attracted people being subject to forced conversion practices.

And, of course, one of the issues that concerns people here is that the use of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgical procedures on children and young people with mental and emotional distress. This could certainly be seen as cruel and extreme. It could also be seen as a conversion practice, since many of these children are actually gay. This was the testimony of gay clinicians who worked at the Tavistock gender clinic before it was closed down.

fromorbit · 25/06/2026 16:41

Labour’s conversion therapy bill is not fit for purpose
By Josephine Bartosch

https://archive.ph/DzVsU

OP posts:
SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 25/06/2026 16:26

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 14:26

The thing is with forms of neogender ideology is it can't accept that OTHER ways of thinking about gender exist and always will. That is why it needs government laws to enforce it.

Nothing about this legislation prevents you from holding your personal beliefs, or affects you at all unless you are a conversion therapist.

Women's groups plus gays are decent number of people.

Most women and most gay people do not support your movement.

You say “most women and most gay people do not support your movement”. That just is not borne out by the data.

Polling over the last few years shows that a clear majority of Britons want toilets, changing rooms and showers to remain single-sex. In a JL Partners poll of 1,500 UK adults in March 2026, 78% preferred single-sex workplace toilets, 81% preferred single-sex toilets in parks or pubs, and 86% preferred single-sex showers and changing rooms. Only around one in five respondents said trans-identifying people should be allowed to use whichever facilities they prefer, and this was true even among 18- to 24-year-olds and Green voters. https://sex-matters.org/posts/single-sex-services/new-poll-shows-most-people-prefer-single-sex-toilets-and-changing-rooms/]

YouGov’s own research says much the same. In December 2024, fewer than four in ten Britons said trans women should be allowed to use women’s changing rooms or toilets, while 55–58% were opposed. A majority, 55%, said letting trans women use spaces reserved for women, such as toilets or changing rooms, presents a genuine risk of harm to women. 74% said trans women should not compete in women’s sport. https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51325-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-2024-25]

Support is also moving away from self-ID. Among women, YouGov found support for people legally changing gender had fallen from 44% in 2022 to 37%, while opposition had risen to 42%. Among 18- to 24-year-olds, support for legal gender change fell seven points, while opposition rose sixteen points. Overall, only about a third of Britons now say people should be able to change both their social and legal gender, while a similar share say neither. https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51325-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-2024-25]

A YouGov poll for Sex Matters in December 2024 found that 54% supported clarifying the Equality Act so that sex means biological sex, and among those expressing a view support was more than 2:1 in favour. It also found almost three-quarters thought women’s sport should exclude all males, regardless of claimed identity. https://sex-matters.org/posts/single-sex-services/poll-shows-support-for-sex-meaning-sex-in-equality-act/]

None of this means the public is hostile to trans people. More in Common found that most Britons want a “live and let live” approach, with compassion and common sense as the starting point. People want trans people treated decently and protected from bullying and discrimination. But the same report also found that most of the public, 57%, think trans women should not compete in women-only sport, and that people want inclusion balanced with fairness. https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/britons-and-gender-identity/]

Ipsos found the same international trend in 2025. Only 22% across 23 countries supported trans athletes competing based on gender identity rather than sex, down from 32% in 2021. Opposition was strongest in Great Britain and Hungary, both at 61%. https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2025-06/ipsos-pride-report-2025.pdf]

Gender critical is not a mad fringe view. It is a massive majority across all sections of the country. In the ordinary, practical sense — humans cannot literally change sex, and women’s spaces and sport should not be opened to males on the basis of identity — it is now basically the mainstream UK position, and it always has been

Most people do not hate trans people. Most people are happy to be polite, live and let live, and let adults present however they want. What they do not accept is being told that sex is not real, that women cannot have boundaries, or that single-sex spaces must become mixed-sex because activists demand it.

And I think support is falling partly because people have seen what “trans rights” activism actually asks for in practice: self-ID, males in women’s sport, males in women’s changing rooms, compelled language, no debate, and anyone who says “hang on” being called a bigot. That is not winning people over. It is pushing ordinary women, gay people and plenty of decent middle-of-the-road people towards the gender-critical position.

TRAs have shot their own movement by pushing too far and being dick heads.

OP posts:
BunnyBunbunbun · 25/06/2026 16:24

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 14:54

"This proposed law" doesn't force you to believe anything at all, it just requires you not to force your beliefs upon others with the intention of trying to change their sexuality or gender identity.

Hilarious, considering how Stonewall - which has welcomed this law that has inherent risks for lesbians and gay men - was telling us lesbians that we have to be open to dating biological men who have an "internal sense" that they are lesbians otherwise we are akin to racists. What is that if not an attempt at conversion therapy of lesbians, to make us be attracted to men? Trans ideology in many cases is conversion therapy of gay people.

So, if I tell man who enters a ladies loo that it's for women only and he says "I am a woman" then it's illegal for me to point out that he isn't a woman and he therefore shouldn't be in the women's loos? But, according to Labour biological men shouldn't be in women's loos. Now they're telling us that it's illegal to tell biological men that they shouldn't be in the women's loos? Labour really need to work out what their laws are.

Is it ok for me under this new proposed law to say that I don't believe transwomen are women, that I believe transwomen are men and that they always will be men and that it's impossible for men to become women, as long as I don't say directly to a man who claims to be a woman that he's not a woman, he's a man?

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 25/06/2026 16:21

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1uf52tc/conversion_practices_draft_bill/

Bill has not gone down well on the other side at all...

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 16:11

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 15:11

I don't care. None of this thread is about your personal beliefs, much as you keep repeatedly trying to insist that it is for some reason.

Any time you try to claim your personal belief as a fact, you’ll be challenged.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 25/06/2026 16:08

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 14:04

They don't. All the available research shows regret rates are low.

Zoonosis, the problem is that desistance/detransition is very easy to undercount.

In the German insurance study of nearly 8,000 young people with an F64 gender identity diagnosis, only 36.4% still had the diagnosis five years later. Persistence was under 50% in every age group, and only 27.3% in 15 to 19-year-old females. So the idea that adolescent gender distress is normally fixed for life is not supported by that data. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11539877/]

Older follow-up studies of pre-pubertal children also found high desistance. One large follow-up of boys referred for gender identity disorder found only 12.2% persisted, while 87.8% desisted. Across earlier studies, persistence averaged about 17.4%, meaning roughly four out of five did not continue with gender dysphoria into adolescence/adulthood. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8039393/]

And the reported detransition rates are almost certainly undercounts, because people vanish from the system. Reuters noted that in one Dutch clinic study, 36% of patients did not return after several years and were simply lost to follow-up. In a UK adolescent referral review, 8.3% no longer identified as gender-diverse, but the authors said that may be an underestimate because another 5.4% moved away or did not follow up. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/]

There are obvious reasons people do not report it. They may feel embarrassed, ashamed, stupid, or trapped by what they have already said publicly. They may have changed name, pronouns, friendship groups, school identity, online identity, community, politics, clothes, hair, documents, or even body. Walking that back is not neutral. It is socially costly.

There is also pressure from within queer/trans communities. Reuters reported detransitioners being told to “shut up” and even receiving death threats. That will obviously discourage people from saying: “Actually, this was wrong for me.” https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/]

A survey of detransitioners found only 13% got help from LGBT organisations during detransition, compared with 51% who had support while transitioning. Over half said they did not feel supported during detransition. Their common reasons included realising the dysphoria was about other issues, health concerns, and transition not relieving the distress. https://segm.org/first_large_study_of_detransitioners]

A JAMA Network Open qualitative study also found people discontinuing or reversing treatment often disengaged from care, avoided clinicians because of shame or anticipated stigma, and described lack of follow-up from clinics as a consistent theme. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9315415/]

So no, I don’t think we can honestly say detransition is vanishingly rare. We can say the true rate is uncertain, and probably under-reported because of poor follow-up, bad definitions, social shame, community pressure, and the fact that many people who stop identifying as trans no longer appear in “trans” datasets at all.

That is why I think the sane position is exploratory, whole-person therapy. Not “you are definitely trans”, and not “you are definitely not trans”, but proper therapy that looks at autism, trauma, sexuality, puberty, family dynamics, anxiety, depression, social influence, body image and everything else before anyone gets pushed down a path they may later struggle to leave. Somethign this bill - prevents - do you see?

OP posts:
1984Now · 25/06/2026 15:58

Wishesandhorses · 25/06/2026 15:44

Excellent set of quotes, thank you. Agree with all of them.

The newest cult and religion carries on.
It's amazing how many of the ruling class are so indoctrinated with suicidal empathy and weaponised kindness that they can come up with this and feel they're making the world a more caring place.

Wishesandhorses · 25/06/2026 15:44

fromorbit · 25/06/2026 13:37

More takes from X

From LGB alliance

Bev Jackson

It is clearly no coincidence that the draft Conversion Practices Bill has been published almost simultaneously with the plan to press ahead with the puberty blockers trial. The expectation is presumably that opponents will be overstretched and unable to fight both effectively. Gender identity activists always underestimate our strength and determination. Big mistake!

Caroline Farrow
·
1h
They published the conversion therapy bill this morning. I’ve read all 20 pages so you don’t have to. It’s worse than the press release admits.

Doctors are protected; the bill carves them out.

Mums aren’t. There’s no equivalent line anywhere in it for a parent.

And “emotional pressure” is written in as something that can make your conduct “abusive.”

So a mum who urges her daughter to wait, to be at peace with her body, is left to a prosecutor’s view of whether that was abuse. She could get up to 5 years in prison.

It goes further. The police or your local council can ask a court to order you to stop, before any charge, before any offence, and even without you in the room to defend yourself. Breaking that order is itself a crime.

Hilary Cass was reassured doctors could keep working. Fine. Now show me the line that protects a mother.

There isn’t one.

It needs stopping

Maya Forstater
The puberty blockers trial and the promised conversion therapy bill are both solutions looking for a problem. The actual thing they are trying to solve is how to legitimise the idea of adult transexualism as being an in born trait which requires extreme societal accommodation.

Rosie Duffield MP

Make no mistake, this will include parents who are convinced their healthy child may simply grow up to be gay and would like them to pause, talk and think carefully before drastic surgery...

Parents convicted of ‘conversion therapy’ face five years jail.

Excellent set of quotes, thank you. Agree with all of them.

Wishesandhorses · 25/06/2026 15:41

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 14:26

The thing is with forms of neogender ideology is it can't accept that OTHER ways of thinking about gender exist and always will. That is why it needs government laws to enforce it.

Nothing about this legislation prevents you from holding your personal beliefs, or affects you at all unless you are a conversion therapist.

Women's groups plus gays are decent number of people.

Most women and most gay people do not support your movement.

And your evidence of this?

Lesbian here. And woman. No survey has ever reached me. These grand statements are meaningless and will remain so without a referendum.

This bill is a sledgehammer to crack a nut that is in doubt anyway, will be full of unintended consequences and cause many issues and expensive court cases to no real purpose, and arguably achieves nothing anyway in terms of protections that is not already protected in law.

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 15:11

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 15:08

I disbelieve in your ideology.

I don't care. None of this thread is about your personal beliefs, much as you keep repeatedly trying to insist that it is for some reason.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 15:10

noblegiraffe · 25/06/2026 15:05

You haven't answered this one, @Zoonosis

I think it was handwaved away with “there aren’t that many of them”.

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 15:10

noblegiraffe · 25/06/2026 15:05

You haven't answered this one, @Zoonosis

I did, I pointed out all the available scientific research consistently shows regret rates are low. Your anonymous and probably rather biased personal anecdata doesn't counter this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 15:09

I don’t have to believe in the concept of innate gender identity any more than I have to believe there is an all powerful being who created the earth.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 15:08

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 15:06

I was asked by a different poster to define gender identity, which I did - if you think that was irrelevant, take it up with them. You then responded to me announcing that you didn't have a gender identity therefore you've concluded no one does, which is a bit like assuming because you've never seen the Arc de Triomphe no one else has. Honestly I've given you far more time and energy than your contributions have deserved.

I disbelieve in your ideology.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 15:06

It’s only ever linked to sex, as something (which doesn’t actually change their sex under equality legislation) a person can do to “reassign” their sex. That’s why “non binary” isn’t protected. The framework is around transsexualism” not “transgender”.

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 15:06

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 15:01

No, I responded to your irrelevant point, not the other way around. You chose to proclaim the ideological tenets of your fringe belief system as settled fact.

I was asked by a different poster to define gender identity, which I did - if you think that was irrelevant, take it up with them. You then responded to me announcing that you didn't have a gender identity therefore you've concluded no one does, which is a bit like assuming because you've never seen the Arc de Triomphe no one else has. Honestly I've given you far more time and energy than your contributions have deserved.

noblegiraffe · 25/06/2026 15:05

noblegiraffe · 25/06/2026 14:43

Why do most kids who think they are transgender desist?

There are loads who never even make it to the gender clinics let alone any waiting lists or medication or surgery to regret. Why do they change their minds?

You haven't answered this one, @Zoonosis

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 15:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 14:57

Your definition isn’t the “accepted definition”. The law doesn’t cover “gender” other than the legal fiction of the GRA. However as you are well aware that definition doesn’t extend to the Equality Act or the workplace regulations.

This is false, there are multiple pieces of legislation which engage with the concept of gender, including the Equality Act, which explicitly protects people with the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment".

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 25/06/2026 15:01

With the GRA Labour legalised lying, now Labour with this Conversion Therapy Bill is going to make telling the truth an illegal act.
Gender identity is an entirely invented doctrine, a belief system stitched together from vibes and wishful thinking and they’re elevating it above evidence, biology, and basic common sense.
Apparently, we’re all expected to nod along while fantasy is upgraded to 'protected truth', and anyone who declines to play pretend gets treated like a public menace.
It’s a remarkable achievement, dismantling reality while insisting it’s progress, dismantling the foundations of civilisation and calling it compassion,
If this isn’t the threshold of a dystopia, it’s hard to imagine what is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 15:01

No, I responded to your irrelevant point, not the other way around. You chose to proclaim the ideological tenets of your fringe belief system as settled fact.

Zoonosis · 25/06/2026 14:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 14:48

You’ve made a lot of claims, not all of them strictly relevant to this draft bill.

I'm answering points as they are presented to me; I agree some are not strictly on topic, including your foot-stamping about your beliefs, which are irrelevant to this law which does not impact your right to your personal beliefs, and is not obliged to incorporate them.