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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

As much spent on Maternity Compensation as Maternity Care

81 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2026 12:36

Ockenden also highlights a "startling statistic", that says clinical negligence is costing the NHS almost the same in legal compensation - as it spends on the delivery of maternity care itself.

This is how little women matter in political terms.

This isn't just a reflection of the NHS. It's in terms of how our society values having children.

It says everything.

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RedToothBrush · 26/06/2026 08:02

igelkott2026 · 25/06/2026 15:11

There's always so much moaning about elective c-sections. Yet if we did more of those and fewer botched vaginal deliveries and emergency c-sections, we'd probably reduce the negligence bill massively (as well as the bill for repairing womens' bits when ripped apart).

If someone was to approach this and do some freedom of information requests on method of delivery and negligence pay outs, ELCS almost certainly would fare well. It would then generate statistics which would make for uncomfortable reading but probably wouldn't really help women.

ELCS are all done between 9-5 Mon to Fri. This is when the most experienced staff are available and when the most staff are on shift. Because these shifts are the sociable ones.

Time and again the underlying theme is lack of problems comes back to staffing, lack of leadership/supervision and lack of necessary skills out of hours in reports.

ELCS almost hide the problem because you wouldnt be able to tell if the outcomes were a result of the method of birth being a correlation or causation issue. Or most likely both. The potential for misreading and misusing this idea is huge.

When researching everything that I could possibly find about ELCS one thing came up that is really concerning. If you reach a certain percentage of ELCS then they become the cheapest method of delivery. Why? Because you don't have to fund out of hours care anywhere near as much. And this was what has happened in China. Women having very few children (one child policy until fairly recently) meant that risks associated with subsequent births were irrelevant (risk with vbs decline with second babies and subsequent babies). Only the risks for first births matters. And since much of the risk with an ELCS is for subsequent births, this mattered. It allowed China to have incredibly low staffing and of course this meant women had next to no choice because you would be foolish to risk a VB which tend to happen in the early hours of the morning when there's no staff around. It would have the effect in the long term of making this much more dangerous. But it's become so normalised that attitudes seem ELCSs as better.

There isn't a better method. Only a better method for each individual woman. This production line attitude to birth - which we've seen develop in the UK and in China in different ways isn't healthy.

It always comes back to the need for women centred care with the emphasis on the individual. You can't do this in an environment which has the priority of cutting corners and cutting costs. It has to be treated like a long term investment where if you put in money your outcomes across the board are going to improve.

As we can see from the figures in this in quite a startling manner that the lack of investment in women giving birth has done nothing but harm but no one has been monitoring this and there's been no accountability because these are 'separate budget pools' with no oversight and no one joining up the very obvious dots. That's 100% on hospital management who are easy breezy about spunking huge amounts on compensation because the easier management route is poor investment in services and then trying to cover arses rather than deal with known and obvious problems.

It's toxic.

The emphasis has been for women to comply with stupid notions about rates of C-section rather than hospital managers having to comply and account for high negligence claims and costs. Their solution has always been to throw it back onto women on the most dangerous day of their lives and to try and cover it up and do their fucking jobs properly.

Unfortunately I believe until we start seeing hospital managers legal liable nothing will change.

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RedToothBrush · 26/06/2026 07:38

JulietteHasAGun · 25/06/2026 23:46

It's a complex subject. But we aren't collecting enough data on what's going on and reasons for an ELCS. This is really important. But no one gives a shit enough to do this research.

that’s not correct, there’s a lot of research on the topic

There's really not. There can't be if they don't actually record reasons for ELCS officially. Which they don't.

I was classified as an ELCS for maternal choice. My notes all said mental health reasons. This is important to make a clear distinction.

I spent a huge amount of time looking at this and there's a problem with the research available, the quality of the research and how badly it's being politically influenced.

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DworkinWasRight · 26/06/2026 07:16

igelkott2026 · 25/06/2026 15:11

There's always so much moaning about elective c-sections. Yet if we did more of those and fewer botched vaginal deliveries and emergency c-sections, we'd probably reduce the negligence bill massively (as well as the bill for repairing womens' bits when ripped apart).

We certainly woukd. Most of the maternity negligence bill goes on paying for the lifetime care of brain-injured children. These injuries only occur when a woman goes through labour.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/06/2026 07:03

The UK ranks at 19th out of 22 comparable countiries for infant newborn mortality rates:
https://post.parliament.uk/maternal-newborn-and-infant-health-priorities-for-improved-outcomes/

Until the government forces the NHS to redirect finances to adequately staff, train & resource maternity care, nothing will change. We can all see at a glance certain areas where the NHS is awash with money spent on pointless fripperies (flags, crossings, lanyards, time wasting anti women policies and Bumba type DEI jobs} that leaders are content to waste resources on.

Yet they can't be bothered to direct time and resources to improve maternity care.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/06/2026 06:53

TheRealMagic · 26/06/2026 06:26

But the 'with good care' part is crucial, and exactly the issue at hand. Trusts who are not giving compassionate, careful or even adequate care for vaginal births wouldn't suddenly become fine if everyone had an elective c section. A friend of mine had an elective c section and the actual birth was wonderful - calm, controlled, everything she'd hoped for - and then she was neglected with inadequate pain relief and no basic assistance on the postnatal ward. She ended up getting an infection. It turned what could have been a really great birth into an experience that she found pretty traumatic.

If the problem is the care and the attitudes to women then changing the method of birth won't solve that.

The problem are multiple - lack of good safe care, awful attitudes to women, poor management. staff being caught up in a "natural birth at all costs" and zero consequences for those failing in so many areas "Leaders at the trust were repeatedly warned of maternity problems but “brushed them under the carpet”. For over a deacde!

From this article in the Times who have been covering these scandals for years and here point out how those leaders who presided over these known failings have been rewarded with promotion and awards. They're finally naming names :

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/ockenden-review-nottingham-maternity-nhs-bosses-managers-accountable-jq88tqn0z

We've all got our own anecdotes about c sections, good or appalling care etc. But that shouldn't distract us from the terrible consequences that some women & babies. The UK apparently ranks 19th out of 22 comparable countries. That's how awful the situation is.

Ockenden review: Three hospital bosses were awarded CBEs

The review of maternity services at Nottingham University Hospital Trust criticised the leadership of units led by senior staff who were later given honours

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/ockenden-review-nottingham-maternity-nhs-bosses-managers-accountable-jq88tqn0z

Cheese55 · 26/06/2026 06:48

TheRealMagic · 26/06/2026 06:26

But the 'with good care' part is crucial, and exactly the issue at hand. Trusts who are not giving compassionate, careful or even adequate care for vaginal births wouldn't suddenly become fine if everyone had an elective c section. A friend of mine had an elective c section and the actual birth was wonderful - calm, controlled, everything she'd hoped for - and then she was neglected with inadequate pain relief and no basic assistance on the postnatal ward. She ended up getting an infection. It turned what could have been a really great birth into an experience that she found pretty traumatic.

If the problem is the care and the attitudes to women then changing the method of birth won't solve that.

That's kinda of what I mean. Why are we worried about how women give birth and instead focus on why is any pregnant/post natal woman seen as a nuscience.

TheRealMagic · 26/06/2026 06:26

Cheese55 · 26/06/2026 06:11

Ive never really understood why c sections are seen as so bad. The recovery, with good care, can be better than all the injuries associated with a vaginal birth.

But the 'with good care' part is crucial, and exactly the issue at hand. Trusts who are not giving compassionate, careful or even adequate care for vaginal births wouldn't suddenly become fine if everyone had an elective c section. A friend of mine had an elective c section and the actual birth was wonderful - calm, controlled, everything she'd hoped for - and then she was neglected with inadequate pain relief and no basic assistance on the postnatal ward. She ended up getting an infection. It turned what could have been a really great birth into an experience that she found pretty traumatic.

If the problem is the care and the attitudes to women then changing the method of birth won't solve that.

Grievingaunt · 26/06/2026 06:25

It's not only maternity services at Nottingham that's appalling.

Cheese55 · 26/06/2026 06:11

RedToothBrush · 25/06/2026 22:47

Define 'unnecessary'.

This matters.

Ive never really understood why c sections are seen as so bad. The recovery, with good care, can be better than all the injuries associated with a vaginal birth.

Cheeseandolivesplease · 26/06/2026 01:01

I personally don't believe that NHS maternity services as a whole are fit for purpose; the Ockendon Review only further supports my belief.
It's one of the reasons I opted for a private (IM) home birth with my third child, born at the height of the Covid pandemic.
Had I my time again I'd have elected to have them all - all categorised as low risk pregnancies - at home (with the same IM if possible).

JustLetMeHave · 25/06/2026 23:47

RedToothBrush · 25/06/2026 22:46

If your grandmother had a C-section with your mother and your mother had a C-section with you, would someone be quite as flippant with the whole 'well it's not natural'.

The thing for me is my grandmother would have died. Never mind my mum. Or me. So that's two generations of women who weren't capable of giving birth.

It's perfectly possible that I belong to a line which is unable to give birth naturally at this point. We don't know this. It's not possible to know this because it may be a unique genetic quirk or there may be more general patterns which don't necessarily apply to all women.

The flip to this is I do think undoubtedly there's a huge number of women who, if they were better supported emotionally and practically who would attempt a VB who are currently having ELCS.

I wouldn't have been one of these. I am part of an identified group which is slightly different and has different characteristics. I wouldn't have had a child.

And this is where we should be mindful about lumping all women who decide to have an ELCS together.

The terrible issues with staffing and poor care are a huge part of the issues - birth trauma still isn't being taken seriously and ELCS requests are very often due to a previous bad experience. Again this is recognised.

It's a complex subject. But we aren't collecting enough data on what's going on and reasons for an ELCS. This is really important. But no one gives a shit enough to do this research.

I agree. My 1st birth gave me PTSD and it took me 4.5 years and 1 miscarriage to get the courage together to get pregnant again. This time I felt so distrustful of the staff, I employed an experienced and knowledgeable doula to 'shield' me, in effect, so I knew I had someone on my team who could prevent the coercion and keep them accountable. Even so I knew I couldn't give birth naturally in hospital again so I opted for either a VBAC homebirth (after much berating from the consultant) or an ELCS at 42 weeks if baby was stubborn. Thankfully he came normally, and I had an uneventful homebirth, but I only felt safe enough to even try and give birth naturally because I was on my home turf. A lot of women are not able to pay for a doula and don't have that option.

JulietteHasAGun · 25/06/2026 23:46

It's a complex subject. But we aren't collecting enough data on what's going on and reasons for an ELCS. This is really important. But no one gives a shit enough to do this research.

that’s not correct, there’s a lot of research on the topic

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 23:35

Analysis of NHS figures shows the potential bill for maternity negligence in England since 2019 has reached £27.4bn – far more than the health service’s roughly £18bn budget for newborns in that time.

this is where the comparison is derived from. Can you explain how it’s “disinformation” @NowSober ?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 23:27

NowSober · 25/06/2026 10:48

This would be alarming if true but I already posted up thread that this is total disinformation. Maybe it is supposed to be a joke but it’s complete lies.

The total NHS budget is about £200 million with £17 billion paid out as pensions & £3 billion paid in damages for clinical malpractice. The NHS employs nearly two million people so unsurprisingly the largest single expense annually is £80 billion in wages.

Blame the Guardian then. Figures including legal costs not just damages. Estimated bill:

The £27.4bn figure is the estimated value of maternity claims arising out of incidents since April 2019. NHS Resolution said the figure could change as there is an average three-year gap between an incident and a legal claim, the most serious birth injuries resulting in payments made over several years – and sometimes for the duration of the child’s life. NHS Resolution said the £27.4bn value of maternity claims and the £37.5bn outstanding provision would fluctuate as a result of the Treasury discount rate, the formula used to calculate the value of future compensation payouts.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/20/nhs-facing-absolutely-shocking-27bn-bill-for-maternity-failings-in-england

NHS facing ‘absolutely shocking’ £27bn bill for maternity failings in England

Exclusive: Legal actions rise after death or injury of hundreds of babies and women in recent years

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/20/nhs-facing-absolutely-shocking-27bn-bill-for-maternity-failings-in-england

RedToothBrush · 25/06/2026 22:47

beigetriangle · 25/06/2026 22:29

but that's the thing.
GOOD maternity care avoids unecessary c sections whilst making sure those women and babies who need them get them before it becomes an acute emergency.

Define 'unnecessary'.

This matters.

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RedToothBrush · 25/06/2026 22:46

Cheese55 · 25/06/2026 21:12

Some women are inherently unable to give birth, thats why we used to regularly die in childbirth.

If your grandmother had a C-section with your mother and your mother had a C-section with you, would someone be quite as flippant with the whole 'well it's not natural'.

The thing for me is my grandmother would have died. Never mind my mum. Or me. So that's two generations of women who weren't capable of giving birth.

It's perfectly possible that I belong to a line which is unable to give birth naturally at this point. We don't know this. It's not possible to know this because it may be a unique genetic quirk or there may be more general patterns which don't necessarily apply to all women.

The flip to this is I do think undoubtedly there's a huge number of women who, if they were better supported emotionally and practically who would attempt a VB who are currently having ELCS.

I wouldn't have been one of these. I am part of an identified group which is slightly different and has different characteristics. I wouldn't have had a child.

And this is where we should be mindful about lumping all women who decide to have an ELCS together.

The terrible issues with staffing and poor care are a huge part of the issues - birth trauma still isn't being taken seriously and ELCS requests are very often due to a previous bad experience. Again this is recognised.

It's a complex subject. But we aren't collecting enough data on what's going on and reasons for an ELCS. This is really important. But no one gives a shit enough to do this research.

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beigetriangle · 25/06/2026 22:29

but that's the thing.
GOOD maternity care avoids unecessary c sections whilst making sure those women and babies who need them get them before it becomes an acute emergency.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/06/2026 21:55

PiffleWiffleWoozle · 25/06/2026 21:19

Yes there are risks with a c section but that doesn’t mean in many cases it isn’t a life saving operation.

Yes. A number of inquiries into poor maternity care reveals that when maternity staff prioritise vaginal deliveries over clinical safety, the consequences have been fatal. The "natural birth at all costs" ideology has done massive harm to numerous women and babies.

ClayPotaLot · 25/06/2026 21:46

MontyDonsBlueScarf · 25/06/2026 10:50

I had always assumed that compensation was paid by insurance and not from the NHS budget. Is that not the case? Or perhaps the £3 billion isthe cost of the insurance?

Most large organisations self-insure for high frequency risks. There's no point paying an insurance company's overheads and profit when you know you're going to have to pay out on a regular basis. An insurance company would just set the premium to ensure they weren't out of pocket and still made their profit. Large organisations tend to either set up their own quasi companies (like NHS Resolution) or just have set asides on the balance sheet.

PiffleWiffleWoozle · 25/06/2026 21:20

Sorry to all those who have had losses and trauma my heart goes out to you.

PiffleWiffleWoozle · 25/06/2026 21:19

Yes there are risks with a c section but that doesn’t mean in many cases it isn’t a life saving operation.

Cheese55 · 25/06/2026 21:12

ThisAmpleCritic · 25/06/2026 20:50

Elective sections are not the answer. Women are not inherently faulty, unable to birth their babies. The high rate of caesarean section is doing untold harm at a population level that is not fully understood at this time.

Some women are inherently unable to give birth, thats why we used to regularly die in childbirth.

ThisAmpleCritic · 25/06/2026 20:50

igelkott2026 · 25/06/2026 15:11

There's always so much moaning about elective c-sections. Yet if we did more of those and fewer botched vaginal deliveries and emergency c-sections, we'd probably reduce the negligence bill massively (as well as the bill for repairing womens' bits when ripped apart).

Elective sections are not the answer. Women are not inherently faulty, unable to birth their babies. The high rate of caesarean section is doing untold harm at a population level that is not fully understood at this time.

igelkott2026 · 25/06/2026 15:11

There's always so much moaning about elective c-sections. Yet if we did more of those and fewer botched vaginal deliveries and emergency c-sections, we'd probably reduce the negligence bill massively (as well as the bill for repairing womens' bits when ripped apart).