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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debate on the puberty blocker trial this afternoon, 23rd June

116 replies

RoseInAPot · 23/06/2026 10:16

Opposition day debates today, instigated by the LOTO Kemi Badenoch. She has chosen two issues: defence, and the puberty blocker trial.

Sometime this afternoon, will be worth a watch.

Debate on the puberty blocker trial this afternoon, 23rd June
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 24/06/2026 14:11

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 14:02

Thanks, yes I've read through some of that, as much as my brain will allow!
I still think the original poster's (not on this thread) question was, why wouldn't all those in the "wait" group just leave the study? There's nothing here that I can see that would be an incentive to stick around for a year, waiting to get the blockers, if you (meaning the parents, of course) want them now. I suppose some might wait, but I imagine some would just leave the trial and find them illegally online. Except that it would be illegal. And they would have to pay for it.

It doesn't matter, we don't have debate it here. I was just reminded of something that someone wrote when the trial was first announced.

Yes, I think that is entirely possible that some will leave when told that they are in the 'wait' group.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 14:02

Thanks, yes I've read through some of that, as much as my brain will allow!
I still think the original poster's (not on this thread) question was, why wouldn't all those in the "wait" group just leave the study? There's nothing here that I can see that would be an incentive to stick around for a year, waiting to get the blockers, if you (meaning the parents, of course) want them now. I suppose some might wait, but I imagine some would just leave the trial and find them illegally online. Except that it would be illegal. And they would have to pay for it.

It doesn't matter, we don't have debate it here. I was just reminded of something that someone wrote when the trial was first announced.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 24/06/2026 13:56

Finding out which group the young person is in
A computer programme will randomly pick which group the young person is in. Group 1: This group will start the treatment straight away. Group 2: This group will wait 12 months before starting the treatment. A doctor at the Gender Service will tell the young person and their parent/legal guardian which group they are in.

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-trial-easy-read.pdf

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-trial-easy-read.pdf

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 24/06/2026 13:51

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 13:47

Is that right? The previous poster seemed pretty clear about that, in that there was a serious flaw already built into the trial, from the start.

It's possible that they meant that all the "waiters" would then drop out of the trial, rather than wait.

ed. spelling

Edited

From the Trial Protocol:
Delayed Start: Participants in the delayed start group will be offered GnRHa treatment one year after randomisation. They will receive the same monitoring and assessments as the immediate start group.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 13:47

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 24/06/2026 13:39

I think the 'waiters' will know that they are 'waiters'. I don't think that they are being given a placebo.

Is that right? The previous poster seemed pretty clear about that, in that there was a serious flaw already built into the trial, from the start.

It's possible that they meant that all the "waiters" would then drop out of the trial, rather than wait.

ed. spelling

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 24/06/2026 13:47

moto748e · 24/06/2026 13:43

I wonder how many will go online in search, when they find out they are in the loser 'waiter' group?

Search for blockers online?

moto748e · 24/06/2026 13:43

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 24/06/2026 13:39

I think the 'waiters' will know that they are 'waiters'. I don't think that they are being given a placebo.

I wonder how many will go online in search, when they find out they are in the loser 'waiter' group?

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 24/06/2026 13:39

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 13:32

Thanks, I knew someone here would know! I think my confusion comes from the fact that someone here, eons ago when the trial was first announced, reminded us that of course puberty doesn't wait. So of those who are randomly chosen to wait a year, some are going to find out within that year that they are one of the "waiters" because their puberty will start. And nothing they can do about that!

I think the 'waiters' will know that they are 'waiters'. I don't think that they are being given a placebo.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 13:32

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 24/06/2026 13:26

PATHWAYS TRIAL will use a randomised controlled trial design. This means that everyone taking part will be randomly placed in one of two groups - by chance, like flipping a coin. One group will start the treatment straight away, and the other group will start the treatment after 12 months. No one in the study will decide which group they are in.

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/research/pathways-trial

Thanks, I knew someone here would know! I think my confusion comes from the fact that someone here, eons ago when the trial was first announced, reminded us that of course puberty doesn't wait. So of those who are randomly chosen to wait a year, some are going to find out within that year that they are one of the "waiters" because their puberty will start. And nothing they can do about that!

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 24/06/2026 13:26

PATHWAYS TRIAL will use a randomised controlled trial design. This means that everyone taking part will be randomly placed in one of two groups - by chance, like flipping a coin. One group will start the treatment straight away, and the other group will start the treatment after 12 months. No one in the study will decide which group they are in.

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/research/pathways-trial

KCL

PATHWAYS TRIAL | King's College London

PATHWAYS TRIAL focuses on the effects of puberty suppressing hormones on young people’s physical, social and emotional well-being.

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/research/pathways-trial

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 12:02

GCScot · 24/06/2026 11:39

But the kids won't be happy, will they? Not for long, anyway, since the puberty blockers won't solve their real problems

Is there a control group of trans-identifying children who will NOT be given puberty blockers, and perhaps given talking therapy instead as they go through puberty? And how long will the follow-up of participants be?

If there is a control group, I would bet any money that in, say, 10 years, they will have significantly better mental and physical health than the children put on puberty blockers

Of course, if they just ask the control group how happy they are shortly after being told they can't have puberty blockers, they will report being unhappy at not getting what they (think they) want. But in the longer term they will almost certainly be happier (and definitely physically healthier)

I don't believe there is a control group, just one group of children who will get the blockers immediately, and another who have to wait to have them later. I think that's right, but I'm sure someone here knows for definite.

GCScot · 24/06/2026 11:39

Seethlaw · 24/06/2026 07:56

Plus, it's possible that a lot of them won't be around when the scandal hits. We won't know what's happened to these children for another 20 years maybe, after they have "grown up " and tried to "detransition" and tried perhaps to have families of their own. Then the lawsuits will start.

I don't know about that. The first detrans lawsuits in the US are featuring very young people. So this cohort could start suing as early as 10 years from now. Moreover, there's a whole previous cohort out there, which we know already has its detransitioners, so technically it's only a matter of time now until one of them decides to sue.

Most parents will just see formerly distraught children who haven't had what they've been told that they want, turn into "happy" kids because they have their candy now.

But the kids won't be happy, will they? Not for long, anyway, since the puberty blockers won't solve their real problems.

But the kids won't be happy, will they? Not for long, anyway, since the puberty blockers won't solve their real problems

Is there a control group of trans-identifying children who will NOT be given puberty blockers, and perhaps given talking therapy instead as they go through puberty? And how long will the follow-up of participants be?

If there is a control group, I would bet any money that in, say, 10 years, they will have significantly better mental and physical health than the children put on puberty blockers

Of course, if they just ask the control group how happy they are shortly after being told they can't have puberty blockers, they will report being unhappy at not getting what they (think they) want. But in the longer term they will almost certainly be happier (and definitely physically healthier)

moto748e · 24/06/2026 11:21

And let's not forget, it was widely said at the time of the Cass Report's publication, that the trial had to be in the recommendations because if it wasn't, that would look too much like a 'terf victory'; that it was a sop, in other words. Add in the personal pressure Dr Cass faced too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/06/2026 11:14

Exactly. The TRAs claimed at the time that there was no obligation on the government to implement any of it, let alone some.

PencilsInSpace · 24/06/2026 10:54

sohard · 24/06/2026 08:09

Yes this is all down to Cass. I’m afraid we can’t pick and choose which bits we like unfortunately.

Why not?

Why can't we read the report critically and say, 'I agree with Cass on A, B and C but I think she's very wrong on D and E and here is why ...'?

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 24/06/2026 10:39

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/they-knew

WPATH paid a team at Johns Hopkins to find out whether transitioning children actually works. The team, led by Dr Karen Robinson, did the reviews, graded the evidence and reported back. It found “little to no evidence.” That was not the answer WPATH wanted, so WPATH made sure the answer never got out. After all, it had written into the arrangement that the research be used “for the benefit of advancing transgender health in a positive manner”. It sat on the inconvenient data, until Robinson was reduced to complaining in writing that WPATH was “trying to restrict our ability to publish.”

They knew

And they did it anyway.. The FTC case that will end the trans movement

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/they-knew

BunnyBunbunbun · 24/06/2026 10:35

It's also possible (although, having read its protocol I can imagine that the experimenters will try to spin everything as positive) that the trial will find that the risks outweigh the benefits or confirm some risks that were feared but had been obscured in previous similar experiments. It will be difficult for the experimenters to admit that in their findings (even though they admit adverse results are a possibility), because they are then basically admitting that they knowingly gave harmful medication to children (although the blame will probably then be put on 11 year olds for supposedly "assenting").

I wonder what all the MPs who voted for this experiment will say if there are adverse findings.

Pathways experiment protocol

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-trial-protocol.pdf

BunnyBunbunbun · 24/06/2026 10:32

sohard · 24/06/2026 08:09

Yes this is all down to Cass. I’m afraid we can’t pick and choose which bits we like unfortunately.

Since when have we been obliged to be in complete agreeement with everything an individual says or everything contained in a document? The Cass Report was a report, to help policymakers decide policy. It wasn't meant to be prescriptive. As with many things, it was mostly good but also had serious flaws (e.g. this trial). The original trial wanted to experiment on even younger children and have no lower age limit at all and Cass supported that. Should the regulator have not demanded a lower age limit because "we can't pick and choose"?

The Pathways experiment literally admits that there are potential risks. Why do we have to support those potential risks? Especially when the benefits are not clearly defined and nor is the supposed problem of "gender incongruence" that the experiment supposedly aims to resolve.

If you want to resolve the problem of "gender incongruence" then define what it is first (beyond "feels") and explain just what causes some kids to allegedly reject their healthy bodies. Is it social? Is it caused by trauma? Because there's no other explanation for rejecting a healthy body and wanting to block and destroy one's natural healthy development (beyond the rubbish that some adults are feeding these kids about how it's all ok to do this to their body).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/06/2026 08:47

Zoonosis · 23/06/2026 17:14

How did I know Dr SingleSexSpacesInSchools would be along to share his uneducated opinion.

The best outcome is that the child no longer has gender dysphoria and can live peacefully in their own body. Puberty blockers cannot produce that outcome.

No, and they're not intended to, they're intended for short term use while the patient, family and clinical team decide the next best cause of action (you know, the people who are normally involved in making clinical decisions, not politicians, not random male mumsnetters with no expertise and axes to grind). What has also never been shown to be effective in curing gender dysphoria is talk therapy, there is not a single shred of evidence in fact that psychological interventions cure people of being trans, and Cass also admitted this. The only thing which has ever with sound reliable repeatable scientific evidence been shown to relieve gender dysphoria is allowing people to transition.

better than your “I reckon they’re fine and when adults take them there aren’t any side effects” which is demonstrably wrong.

EasternStandard · 24/06/2026 08:38

sohard · 24/06/2026 08:09

Yes this is all down to Cass. I’m afraid we can’t pick and choose which bits we like unfortunately.

Of course politicians can, that’s their job.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 08:37

Seethlaw · 24/06/2026 08:17

it can be considerably harder to bring legal action here in the UK. It's a ridiculously long process and claimants need to consider their risk for costs if they lose.

Very true. This is good in some cases, but unfortunately it's quite the hurdle in this one. Though the existence of the JKR fund might help, I guess? I think it would be applicable to detrans women suing, at least?

Very good point re The Fund. I had forgotten we have that. That makes me feel a bit more positive this morning 🙂

Seethlaw · 24/06/2026 08:17

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 08:09

We can only hope re the lawsuits, and I do hope it's sooner rather than later, but it can be considerably harder to bring legal action here in the UK. It's a ridiculously long process and claimants need to consider their risk for costs if they lose.

Even 10 years from now, many of these politicians will no longer be in politics anymore, and I've rarely seen any appetite for pursuing former politicians for votes/endorsements they made previously (if ever). It's normally for corruption (see Peter Murrell). And, someone correct me please if I'm wrong, I don't think you can go after someone legally for something they said or voted for while an MP.

A judicial review might help, but we all know how long those take.

I would be very happy to be wrong about all of this.

I agree, these kids won't be happy, but they'll definitely demonstrate "happiness " if they are finally getting what they want. So will their parents, until they realize this won't fix anything.

it can be considerably harder to bring legal action here in the UK. It's a ridiculously long process and claimants need to consider their risk for costs if they lose.

Very true. This is good in some cases, but unfortunately it's quite the hurdle in this one. Though the existence of the JKR fund might help, I guess? I think it would be applicable to detrans women suing, at least?

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 24/06/2026 08:09

Seethlaw · 24/06/2026 07:56

Plus, it's possible that a lot of them won't be around when the scandal hits. We won't know what's happened to these children for another 20 years maybe, after they have "grown up " and tried to "detransition" and tried perhaps to have families of their own. Then the lawsuits will start.

I don't know about that. The first detrans lawsuits in the US are featuring very young people. So this cohort could start suing as early as 10 years from now. Moreover, there's a whole previous cohort out there, which we know already has its detransitioners, so technically it's only a matter of time now until one of them decides to sue.

Most parents will just see formerly distraught children who haven't had what they've been told that they want, turn into "happy" kids because they have their candy now.

But the kids won't be happy, will they? Not for long, anyway, since the puberty blockers won't solve their real problems.

We can only hope re the lawsuits, and I do hope it's sooner rather than later, but it can be considerably harder to bring legal action here in the UK. It's a ridiculously long process and claimants need to consider their risk for costs if they lose.

Even 10 years from now, many of these politicians will no longer be in politics anymore, and I've rarely seen any appetite for pursuing former politicians for votes/endorsements they made previously (if ever). It's normally for corruption (see Peter Murrell). And, someone correct me please if I'm wrong, I don't think you can go after someone legally for something they said or voted for while an MP.

A judicial review might help, but we all know how long those take.

I would be very happy to be wrong about all of this.

I agree, these kids won't be happy, but they'll definitely demonstrate "happiness " if they are finally getting what they want. So will their parents, until they realize this won't fix anything.

sohard · 24/06/2026 08:09

BunnyBunbunbun · 24/06/2026 07:26

This experiment was backed by Cass, who proposed it and supports it. This gives the MPs cover. I suspect that many are only backing it because Cass is saying it should happen, even though the Labour government at one point tried to stop it (although it's not quite clear what the government's position is this week, it keeps changing).

Yes this is all down to Cass. I’m afraid we can’t pick and choose which bits we like unfortunately.