Has there been an influx of TRAs to Mumsnet recently?

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

One could argue that since only 0.02 percent of the male imprisoned population in 2019 were trans, that trans women are very much less likely to commit any crime than men, since the estimate is that between 0.1 and 0.5 percent of men identify as trans.

Or, doing further analysis, According to ONS, the male population aged 18+ in 2019 was approx 26.2 million. So 0.003 percent of men were imprisoned in 2019.

Taking the mid point of the estimates, that 0.25 percent of males identify as trans, that would be about 65500 transwomen in the UK, of whom 129 or 0.002 percent are in prison. So slightly less likely to offend than men and be convicted. If one chooses the more conservative estimate of 0.1 percent of mean, the figure of 0.004 percent of them in prison means 1 extra trans offender per 1000 transwomen compared to 1000 men.

So whilst one might argue that a transperson committing crime is more likely to be committing sex crimes than a man committing crimes is likely to be committing sex crimes, 99.998 percent of transwomen are not in prison, and of that 0.002 percent that are, about half are there for sex crimes.

76/65500 is 0.001 percent of transwomen committing sex crimes and being convicted. That's 1 in 1000

13234/26.2 million is 0.0005 of men committing sex crimes and being convicted. That's 1 in 2000

So overall both males and transwomen are overwhelmingly not criminals. Sex crimes appear at around double the rate in transwomen, and thankfully that is still incredibly rare and 999 in 1000 transwomen are not being convicted of sex crimes.

Well, the way you are being ignored across various threads makes me think that you don’t exist in TPA’s eyes!

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

Trans men exist too. And that's because for some people, their outward gender doesn't match the inner. Some dress according to gender stereotype, some do not.

1. There's no such thing as "inner gender".
2. What does that have to do with transwomen being more likely to sexually assault than anyone else?

'Transwomen' are men, and the stats do not even hint at them sexual offending at the same low rate as women

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):

76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison =
16.8%

^committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/^

@TransParentlyAnnoyed "A note on that. Exactly when are anti-trans campaigners going to start thinking about the victims of Isla Bryson and others? Do you really think they want to be retraumatised by seeing their attacker's photo & name, or the details of their attacks discussed? Weaponising their pain and trauma is unforgiveable."

You want to know what actually does retraumatise women who've been victims of attackers in confined spaces that they thought were single sex?
Having to deal with the fact that they might encounter a member of the opposite sex in a confined space that they thought was single sex.

Women's spaces are for women. Not for some men who wish they were women.
Don't pretend you care about those victims. If you did, you'd understand why pro-women campaigners don't want any male-bodied people in women's spaces.

*A note on that. Exactly when are anti-trans campaigners going to start thinking about the victims of Isla Bryson and others? Do you really think they want to be retraumatised by seeing their attacker's photo & name, or the details of their attacks discussed? Weaponising their pain and trauma is unforgiveable.

Deflection and blackmail. That's all you have.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed why can’t trans people use the facilities that align with their birth sex, or use a fourth space and campaign for one if none exists?

A timely reminder, I think, of the It Will Never Happen resource thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?page=1

I’ve never attributed any motivations to trans individuals. I don’t know what their motivations.

where I’ve been clear is that im entitled to single sex spaces, im a rape survivor and my need for them is grounded in that experience.

the law allows me sex based protections and single sex spaces.

why can’t trans individuals either use the facilities that align with their birth sex, or use a fourth space (and campaign for one if none exists)?

why do their rights trump mine?

I know the stat's bullshit.

Utter, complete, transphobic bullshit.

There is no registry of trans women, for pity's sake.

There is no plague of trans women attacking cis. The same few photos of horrific individuals (whose crimes I would never excuse) are endlessly recycled* while cis men who rape women wherever they want without consequence. Even when found guilty.

Trans men exist too. And that's because for some people, their outward gender doesn't match the inner. Some dress according to gender stereotype, some do not.

It's just another "this minority is naturally sexually aggressive" but of bigotry from the exact same people who continue to deal in racism, homophobia, antisemitism and Islamophobia.

*A note on that. Exactly when are anti-trans campaigners going to start thinking about the victims of Isla Bryson and others? Do you really think they want to be retraumatised by seeing their attacker's photo & name, or the details of their attacks discussed? Weaponising their pain and trauma is unforgiveable.

The people who are pushiest in the movement are the ones who are least respectful of women and girls.

If we were to look at a 'hierarchy of needs' where we see and recognise:
Vulnerable women who have suffered sexual abuse
Vulnerable women from religious minority groups
Vulnerable trans identifying teenage girls
Vulnerable middle aged trans identifying males

Guess which one is the least vulnerable?

This is precisely why some seek to lump all trans people together and to silence women.

The Cass Report explicitly said was a not a singular cohort but multiple cohorts with complex needs.

One of the problems we have has been about treating trans people as a single group rather than multiple groups who sometimes actually have conflicting needs.

We know there is a middle aged cohort of AGP men who are very very different from the cohort of sexually abused / autistic / etc teenage girls (see Hannah Barnes for the full list over represented vulnerable groups). However these girls are a useful group for men who have sexually motivated interests to hide behind and act as spokesman for. When you write it down like this it really is creepy.

Yes - sexually motivated APG men (Inc some who freely admit they are apg) speaking for a cohort of girls who are significantly over represented in the number who are sexually abused or otherwise extremely vulnerable. This needs saying out loud because these two groups have some pretty big conflicts of interests going on.

They very much do need separating out and we should be very conscious of how young people may be being used in this manner.

No one wants to see this because it's inconvenient. However duty of care means we have to see the individual needs and the individual risks that individuals have.

We can not and should not be allowing males into female spaces for this reason alone.

@Diverze You're completely wrong. We are entirely aware that there are various different groups caught up in this ideology and discuss it frequently.

For some it is sexuality.
For some it's a way of gaining privilege in sport or access to women's spaces e.g prison often for nefarious purposes.
For some it is presentation/style like goth.

For some it is trauma.
For some it is body dysmorphia.
For some it's a trend.

For some it's linked to rigid thinking related to neurodiversity.
For some it's parental homophobia that makes being gay an issue.

For some it's parental rigidity around sex stereotypes which means they have led their children to the false belief that there is something wrong with them.

Lots of diversity there.

You've posted a fair bit of 'prejudiced generalisation' there yourself @Diverze

Can you not demand single sex spaces without all the prejudiced generalisation about trans people, their motives, their parents' motives? Is that too much to ask?

Sure, I've seen some generalisation. It's inevitable, wherever hurt and angry people are gathered. Victims sometimes lash out irrationally.

But as a rule, people around here only seem to call out those trans people who need to be called out. For example, everyone around here makes a difference between "trans kids" who are clearly searching for themselves, and too many of the much older transwomen who are acting in a sexualised way. Saying the latter exist and are sexually motivated doesn't mean the former are guilty by association.

Adding in, in response to Red toothbrush

I do think recent teaching that one literally becomes indistinguishable from a born woman and anyone recognising one's transness or misgendering you is committing a deliberate hurtful crime is unhelpful.

Recognising one is trans and therefore different but valid is the only way to be mentally well after transition imo.

No, that's not too much to ask. She doesn't use female spaces.

However that's not all 'you' want.
'You' on this thread want me to stop "arranging my life around non reality" (which makes no sense; the reality is that my young person identifies as trans)
'You' believe I am a bad parent who, because I have decided to support my young trans adult have "given in to (my) children's every demand as we read their cries of ‘you must all go along with my child’s delusion or you’ll make them sad’"
'You' make comments about trans women like "they only want to be left to take photos, masturbate next to women and rifle through the sanitary bin in peace!" - surely you understand that is pretty offensive to ordinary transpeople and their families? And yes I get that has happened. It is also true that some Pakistani heritage men were involved in sex trafficking and CSA rings; we would be very inappropriate to say you can therefore not trust any Pakistani man around children as "they only want to be left to rape them and hand them round their friends to abuse in peace!". We don't define a whole cohort by their worst members. (And no, I am not advocating for a breakdown of single sex spaces).
'You' make comments like saying being trans is a "Degenerate lifestyle" in which trans people "spend all their time on computers because they can only pretend not to be their sex on the internet."

Can you not demand single sex spaces without all the prejudiced generalisation about trans people, their motives, their parents' motives? Is that too much to ask?

Yes, I’ve definitely noticed this.

Thinking you can change sex and become a woman because you say so is misogynist.

Thinking that the way you present is reflective of your sex is misogynist.

Telling women they can not define themselves, organise themselves and meet without men is misogynist.

Using terms like uterus haver is misogynist.

These same parallels are NOT happening in the same way when it comes to females transitioning.

These demands and the level of demands are very much assymetric and unfortunately in too many cases are motivated by nefarious reasons. Note here: one case is too many when we speak about the actual impact on women. We are referring to rape, sexual assault, voyeurism and past sexual trauma. No woman or girl - not one - should be sacrificed to this because a male has 'hurt feelings' or is looking for validation. If males are at risk because of a trans identity, that's a male problem and should remain a male problem to be resolved by men rather than creating a more significant problem for women.

If the purpose of a meeting is about confidence building, highly focused on bodily function or social involvement for those women and girls who would otherwise self exclude for whatever reason then yes, a group has a legitimate aim to be single SEX not gender. Group dedicated to transpeople exist and should be used by those needing support not validation.

Women are not support humans and should not be used as crutches for validation. It is misogynist and coercive.

As has been asked before on these threads, how many women and girls do you think are acceptable as collateral damage?

The answer is no.

Your prattling nonsense on misogyny is ignorant and offensive.

It's trans woman not trans 'female'.

And all we want is for your male child to stay out of female spaces. That's all we want. That is literally all we want. Nothing more, nothing less. That's not too much to ask surely.

No, if you believe any of what you said, I pity you.

You're basically saying you do not believe any male would put on a dress and enter womens spaces with an ulterior motive. Videos show males with erections in dresses in womens spaces. These attacks in this meme alone show that there are men who will find a way to get their thrills. It happens. You truly believe men who put on a dress are sacred castes, don't you? You genuinely believe that. We saw what making sacred castes out of priests lead to....

They may not be 'solely' focused on invading our spaces, but when they invade our spaces even on one occasion, that's enough. It doesn't need to be their goal, for it to be an invasion. And female spaces may be public for females, they are NOT public for MALES.

Males are 50% of the population. They are NOT A MINORITY, even when they put on a dress. In fact, putting on a dress makes the predator and oppressor sex class even more dangerous! The fact you don't understand male (transwomen) vs female (transmen) and the different THREAT LEVEL, and the fact that your attitude to women shows you don't believe women and girls deserve spaces away from the male sex, and your dismissive attitude to 'well, they'll attack you anyway', shows how hateful and toxic trans ideology is, and how dismissive it is to the vulnerable sex.

I’m honestly not that interested in any of it. I just want men to stay out of female only spaces. It isn’t a value judgement on individual men, they’re all just men, and they are violating our privacy and dignity and putting us at more risk.

So does your daughter accept that she is still male and, if so, what does she mean when she says that she is a trans female?

@Diverze i think you are generalising too much about the views expressed about the various cohorts of “trans people”

What we are mostly complaining/campaigning about is the infringement of women’s rights and women’s spaces, and the actions of public bodies who have dropped female wording for female body parts, such as uterus havers.

We don’t see reference to sperm producers or other such equivalence.

And as a matter of record women have in the workplace been forced to change in front of males.

Your son is a male how you deal with your situation is your own affair. What i personally object to is when people like you expect me to pretend your son is a woman. I will not do that.