British Orienteering has peaked!

My husband is a lifelong orienteer, and always turns a map to match the direction he is facing.

@SoImAHorseThenTed

I’d be interested to read the studies on map use - I love a good map (and I did win the mapping prize at uni - so it’s not like women really are rubbish at maps).

@Cioccoholic it is not anti-feminist to admit you cannot read maps. Map reading is a learned skill - I spend so much time telling people this when I am teaching map reading. It is a learned skill that some people have a natural aptitude for, and are able to pick up more quickly. Just like learning a foreign language. We all know people who seem to be able to just pick up languages easily. But they don’t just wake up one morning and have the new language transplanted into their head, they have had to work at it to assimilate the new language, and it requires regular practice to maintain fluency in the new language. The same applies to map reading - no one wakes up and just knows how to do it. You have to study maps and practice reading them in practical settings in order to become good at it. Weirdly, no one divides language acquisition skills by sex though - it is acknowledged that men and women are equally capable of being able to pick up a new language if they apply themselves to the learning of it and practice of it. As I said earlier, the perceived greater ability of men to read maps is societal, and entirely down the the fact that boys and men are encouraged more to do these things or encounter them in areas that have been traditionally male-dominated in the past, such as scouts, armed forces, professional drivers (taxi, lorry,) etc.

Yes, this.

In a world where men and women were aleady socially equal¹ we'd only need to worry about the physical differences.

In this world, where there is a whole weighted rucksack of extra social drag women carry that hold us back vs men, there are very good reasons for women-only opportunities outside the purely physical.

However, offering the latter may eventually get us to where we have the former.

¹ By which I mean, accorded the same level of default respect and confidence, so having the same confidence in being heard and taken seriously; given equal respect for being competitive and so having the same confidence to be competitive; facing equal levels of sexualisation, sexual abuse/agression and unwanted sexual advances and so being equally likely to be put off an activity due to the sexualised behaviour of others; being equally judged or not on appearance and to the same standards, so being equally likely to be put off an activity because of judgement on their appearance; having equal domestic and childcare commitments so equal time to train and compete; and so forth

@SoImAHorseThenTed interesting post (especially the horse bit) thank you 👏

"generally sealion every bloody post? It's so 2021. Also, as always, we could all just ignore, ignore, ignore."

You're right I shouldn't have engaged! Back on the rails...should male times be allowed to be on the W class scoreboards with "N/C" after them just to be kind and make them feel included, or should they have to be on the M scoreboard? I don't have a strong opinion either way.

Well done to British Orienteering. I’ve orienteered for years, and never noticed any trans women in any of the categories, but it is good to have it clarified that men will not be able to take points, prizes, places and accolades from women.

@FlowersInDenmark I must confess I’ve had to read your posts several times to try and work out what it is you are trying to say. It would seem that you are effectively saying that there is no difference between male and female ability to run at speed, therefore the only reason that women need a separate category in orienteering is because women are worse at reading maps. Now I could write essays on the difference in men and women running over short distances, over long distances and in reading maps. It’s actually a special interest of mine, and I have included articles on women winning ultra events on my endurance/map reading pages.

Some women are capable of equalling and beating men in running events. And it has been shown scientifically that the longer the distance, the more likely women are to be able to run as equals and even superiors. However, there is a huge wall to break through in shorter distances before running and winning in these longer distances begins to take place, and this is why there are so few women competing and winning in these ultra events. It also goes some way to explain why the successful women are so lauded - they have broken through the short distances barriers, usually by sheer bloody mindedness - to become winners. But over shorter distances, due to the general anatomical differences between sexes, men will be faster.

Now, when it comes to map reading, there have been many studies which show there is no sex-based difference in the ability to read and interpret a map, but there are differences in the way women give directions vs men giving directions. This has been interpreted in a number of ways, but the main conclusion drawn is that the differences in map reading and understanding are primarily as a result of nurture, not nature. Ie the way men and boys are encouraged to use maps is different to the way women and girls are encouraged. I can link to these studies if anyone is as map-geeky as I am.

Back to orienteering. I compete in orienteering, and though I am an excellent map reader, I am rubbish at running. So I rarely do well. But put me on a horse, where my ability to move across the ground has now become equal to a man mounted on a similar horse, and I suddenly become far superior. If women are rubbish at maps as a whole, as @FlowersInDenmark asserts, how can this be explained? I am current British champion in mounted orienteering, an equestrian sport in which there are no male/female categories. As in most equestrian disciplines, men and women compete as equals. Admittedly the sport is rather female-heavy in the U.K., but the last two European champions (where there are many more men competing) have also been women.

I read and use maps too in my daily professional life, I have done for nearly 30 years. I have never known another woman in my profession to struggle with this, it is a skill which it is assumed all men and women in the job will be equally capable of.

So to summarise, there is scientific proof that men run faster than women until a very great distance has been reached. Orienteering does not even nearly reach these distances. There is no scientific proof women are worse at reading maps. The sex divisions in orienteering are there because men are faster than women. Even though orienteering is absolutely a navigation sport.

Has there been some sort of clarion call, out to the wilds of the web, in last few days asking for anyone with a bit of free time to pop over to FWR to deliberately misunderstand, misinterpret, misrepresent and generally sealion every bloody post? It's so 2021.
Also, as always, we could all just ignore, ignore, ignore.
That would be entertaining.

Why are younger people banned from the veterans' classes in orienteering? Do the grizzled, experienced, savvy old orienteers get "dumb at reading maps"?

Every time I think "surely we have heard every stupid argument many times over by now" a new idiot poster turns up and proves me wrong.
For what its worth, in the sport that I played for a few years at semi-professional lever at least one women got life changing injuries because of the inclusion of transwomen. I'm absolutely done with this shit.

I used to do a bit of orienteering and IIRC it was quite common for people to be allowed to compete hors concours in a different class (shorter distance with easier terrain) if they were recovering from injury for example. Although I think usually men and women at a certain skill level compete over the same course just on a separate scoreboard, so the only reason to let trans participants be counted in the W classes as non competitive, rather than the M classes as competitive is to make them feel like they are being counted as women. It's a polite fiction but one that I don't think that matters terribly much.

Sorry just saw a more recent post so editing. Do you think women and men would achieve the same at events at the Olympics if it weren’t for sexism?

@FlowersInDenmark

The question is not whether orienteering competitions should be divided into male and female categories.

The question is whether a competition that has already chosen to divide competitors by sex should enforce those categories according to its rules.

On that question, the answer is yes

Hello there, thank you for engaging with this thread.

I am hoping you might be able to explain, whilst you are here, how a man becomes a transwoman, I don't understand how it happens and am keen to be educated. Can you help, please? Genuine question, BTW.

My dh was brilliant at orienteering. It’s like the guy has a quantum computer in his head that tells him the right way to go. Like a bird with a homing instinct. He does it entirely instinctively.

My brain simply is not built to navigate or follow maps. Even when I concentrate I can still get lost in a shopping centre I’ve been to dozens of times. Why is it anti-feminist to admit I cannot read maps or find my way?

Anyway I don’t think that’s the point of the thread and fair play to the women who can read maps, they shouldn’t have to compete against men.

Dh did the 100km Oxfam South Downs run a couple of times and I realised he is built of muscle and sinew and tough in ways I can only dream of.

I don’t feel “lesser” just because I’m different. I certainly don’t consider it would be fair to be asked to compete against the natural advantage of biological men.

Fabulous post! Please, nobody report this for deletion. It's priceless.

This is just misogyny with extra steps.

Nobody thinks women cannot read maps. The point is that orienteering is a timed physical sport, not a Sudoku puzzle in hiking boots. Running speed, terrain strength, stamina and recovery all matter.

You are the one reducing women’s sport to vibes, feelings and “inclusion”, while treating womanhood as a costume any male can put on if he feels excluded.

Women’s categories do not exist because women are fragile, pure or stupid. They exist because female athletes deserve fair competition against other female athletes.

Sexism is not solved by letting males into women’s prizes, rankings and records. That is just sexism wearing a progressive hat.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5543448-the-first-of-seen-in-sports-32-targets-has-updated-eligibility-to-female-only

This is a strawman. Nobody is saying women are “dumb at maps”, and nobody serious thinks Q angle is the only thing that matters. The point is much simpler: orienteering is not just map-reading. It is timed racing across terrain while navigating under physical and mental load.

At competitive level, orienteers run. They climb, descend, accelerate, recover, make route choices while tired, and cover ground quickly. That is why British Orienteering itself recognises Foot Orienteering and Ski Orienteering as sex-affected sports, where strength, stamina and physique create a competitive disadvantage for female athletes if the female category is not protected.

A woman winning an ultra outright is brilliant, but it does not disprove male advantage in running sports. It shows that at the extreme end of endurance, in particular events and conditions, women can sometimes close the gap or even beat the men in that race. That is not the same as saying there is no sex-based performance difference.

Across standard running distances, males generally outperform females. One 2024 review summarised the male advantage from 100m to marathon as around 7% to 14%. In ultra-endurance events, the gap can narrow, but the evidence does not show that women generally outperform men.

That actually supports separate categories. Male and female bodies have different performance profiles. Males generally have advantages in speed, strength, power, oxygen-carrying capacity, muscle mass and stride mechanics. Females may have relative advantages in some extreme endurance contexts, including pacing, fatigue resistance and fuel use. But ordinary orienteering is not a 200-mile ultra. It is a timed navigation race where covering ground quickly still matters hugely.

Protecting the women’s category does not mean women are bad at maps. It means women are entitled to fair competition, ranking, representation, medals and records against other female athletes. If there were genuinely no sex difference in competitive orienteering, British Orienteering would not need W and M classes at all.

And the new policy is not a “ban” on participation. The unrestricted category remains open, and additional unrestricted entry classes can be offered. What has changed is that female prizes, rankings and titles are reserved for female competitors. That is exactly what a female category is for.

And if a woman transitions to a man does she suddenly become 'clever at maps'?

I’ve never felt dumb at maps, my husband is crap but I’m very good at them. He’s 6ft 3 tall so could cover ground more quickly than me, though, and who knows if my better at maps ability would outweigh his physical advantage if we did orienteering?

The idea that there’s no need for a female category in orienteering “apart from women feeling they’re dumb at maps” (ie there is no male physical advantage in the sport) isn’t the most insane idea a TRA has ever spouted, but it is up there.

I mentioned the English Blackball Pool Federation court case a while ago to a couple of female friends. Both said, "Why do women need a separate competition? Men don't have any advantage in pool?"

But I pointed out that: men are taller with longer arms, so can reach across the table better; have bigger hands for making a bridge; don't have boobs to get in the way; have faster-twitch muscles; can get a game in a pub with strangers without being sexually harassed. And my friends said, "Ah, that's right!"

(I also pointed out that the other pool league at the time was running a women's final containing two trans-identifying men. Something of a coincidence, eh, for such a minority group?)

Transwomen are men so they dont suffer misogyny.
Women often make the best navigators due to our observational skills honed over a lifetime of having to threat asses every male we come across and every environment that we enter.
If transwomen face barriers which prevents them from taking part in orienteering then they should start a 3rd category with support tailored to them not try and shoehorn themselves into groups and categories tailored to women.
You can keep denying biological reality all you want but in a race men will always have an advantage over women.
Oh and there no need to respond because I wont be engaging further with you misogynistic nonses