British Orienteering has peaked!

Not me. Imagine my real name rhymes with 'day'. All my life I have been known as Wrong Way ILikeDay. I turn the wrong way every time. Every time.

I have a fucking tip top sense of direction and stellar map reading skillz.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

It was in a tongue in cheek response to the nonsense posted by Flowers abour female stereotypes. I can both read and create detailed specialist maps.

Of course women are not rubbish at maps. Before the existence of the SatNav, women were a great deal more likely than men to be the navigators on journeys by car (let's not get into "why didn't they drive though?": the men just did tend to) and the reason anyone got lost was entirely that a woman said "turn left at the next junction" and the male driver failed to do so and then refused to turn round and go back to the road they should have been on, but instead blinded on into the blue whilst blaming her for his inattention.

(Bitter, moi?)

I notice that these days if there are a male and a female in a car we overtake or are overtaken by on the motorway it's about evens whether a male or a female is doing the driving, but back in the Bad Old Days women damn' well could read maps; they had to. And it was never suggested they couldn't except when some fool of a man chose to ignore clear instructions about the way to go.

@SoImAHorseThenTed

I’d be interested to read the studies on map use - I love a good map (and I did win the mapping prize at uni - so it’s not like women really are rubbish at maps).

Ah, Marie, me too. I don't let DH near them, he makes the most appalling hash of it.

" if I fuck up while parallel parking, then I say "Fucked that up didn't I!, and do it again. "

You could get a bit of ribbing from your mates but you're unlikely to get jeers, whistles l, raucous laughter and shouted comments from a bunch of strangers and 7 million hits on the internet video. She might.

Parallel parking gone wrong in Belfast goes viral - video https://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/2013/apr/30/parallel-parking-problem-belfast-viral-video?CMP=share_btn_url

I'm afraid well have to agree to disagree on that as misogyny is literally the hatred of women and girls.
Now if you were to say that transwomen suffer from the effects of toxic masculinity (which is what @FlirtsWithRhinos was describing) then I would agree but the hatred of things or behaviours that are perceived as feminine is different from misogyny which is the hatred of women and girls because of our sex not any particular set of gendered stereotypes

Now see what you are describing is the effects of toxic masculinity which involves the hatred of things they deem feminine and therefore lesser rather than the hatred of women and girls because of their sex which is what misogyny is.
Men who hate feminine men or thing that are feminine do so as they feel that its a threat to their own masculinity. Whilst this may have some overlap with misogyny its not the same thing.

I can not only read maps, I can refold them perfectly.
Just sayin'😎

Sure. Here's the Tl;dr

Just as a racist may abuse and devalue
white musicians for embracing and valuing music seen as "black", so misogynists may abuse and devalue male people for embracing and valuing attributes or dress seen as "female".

The first is suffered by white people but would not exist without racism, the second is suffered by male people but would not exist without misogyny.

That's the first part.

However, since trans women's attraction to these things is exactly because they are seen as "female", ultimately they share the same underlying sexism as their abusers.

Therefore they are both suffering from misogyny and acting with misogyny at the same time.

That's the second part.

I'll leave out the link between misogyny and homophobia because it's an aside, not part of the core argument.

BTW it's not word salad. Word salad is intended to obscure the lack of coherent content. I choose my words carefully and intend them to be understood. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to make sure they are.

I'm afraid well have to agree to disagree on that as misogyny is literally the hatred of women and girls.
Now if you were to say that transwomen suffer from the effects of toxic masculinity (which is what @FlirtsWithRhinos was describing) then I would agree but the hatred of things or behaviours that are perceived as feminine is different from misogyny which is the hatred of women and girls because of our sex not any particular set of gendered stereotypes

I think that's overly simplistic. White people can suffer from anti-black racism either by perception ("she looked black, I thought she was") or by association ("she likes 'black' things or has black friends"), both of which are recognized in the Equality Act 2010. There's also the harm that racism does by diminishing our society to everyone's detriment.

I think @FlirtsWithRhinos makes a good point.

@FlirtsWithRhinos could you try saying that again only leaving out the word salad.

Men however they identify can't suffer from misogyny as its literally the hatred of women and girls ergo no man can be the victim of it

I can not only read maps, I can refold them perfectly.
Just sayin'😎

@FlirtsWithRhinos could you try saying that again only leaving out the word salad.

Men however they identify can't suffer from misogyny as its literally the hatred of women and girls ergo no man can be the victim of it

Actually I'd say trans women both suffer from and exhibit misogyny.

They suffer from misogyny in that patriarchy devalues, rejects and (perhaps as a psychological result of the first two) often actively hates female humans. This then transfers onto anything that is female-associated or coded.

IMO both homophobia and "Transphobia" - the latter not of course the entirely reasonable statement that trans people are not in fact members of the opposite sex so we shouldn't pretend they are, but the real thing, the base emotional reaction of fear/hated of trans presenting people, especially men presenting as women, because their cross gender presentation is perceived as weird or wrong - are both simply different expressions of underlying sexism and misogyny.

The patriarchal subconcious (which both men and women have as a consequence of living in a patriarchy) believes male trumps female and therefore has the right to power and privilege that female does not, so reacts very strongly to a deliberately feminine male as a traitor to men.

As an analogy, in the 50s and 60s many white musicians playing blues were subject to abuse for playing "black" music. To that degree, despite not being black and so never facing the lifetime of racism that black musicians faced as an unescapable consequence of the immutable colour of their skin, they nevertheless were attacked and devalued because what they did offended racist values.

And yet, while recognising the above, it is ultimately undeniable that to believe in transgender identies one must first believe that there are mental aspects to of being "a woman" or "a man" which are the primary differences between the sexes not just consequences of ones life experiences of being one sex rather than the other. So primary indeed that one can be "really" the other sex based on ones mind alone.

And that also ultimately rests on the patriarchal constructs of the masculine and the feminine mind.

So while one can understand and accomodate the reality of transmisogyny within Feminist analys, ultimately Feminist analysis has to reject the primary existence of trans identies, understanding them as a phenomenon within patriarchy not a challenge from outside it.

Aside from the "entertaining input" (😄) I've also learnt a lot of interesting things from knowledgeable posters. Great thread!

I don't have a copy but it was really long and very muddled and ended with "you all suck!" 😄

The poster just wanted to have a go at "feminists".