Is "gender identity" real?

Gender is a collection of ideas accepted by a proportion of society, and vehemently rejected by another proportion of society.

In the same way, eating with your knife in your dominant hand and your fork in the other is a social construct, generally agreed on in this country but rejected by many Americans at one time (no idea whether this still obtains, don't care, this is making the point not having a go at Americans); they preferred to cut up their food with knife and fork, then put down the knife, and transfer the fork to their dominant hand to eat with it. That was not socially acceptable here and naice British folk looked at them sideways for it.

Neither way of eating is "real"; each is something accepted by a society.

In England men used not to wear skirts; in Scotland, Greece, and a lot of Asian countries they did. Social mores did not make the Scotsman in his kilt or the Greek policeman in his uniform into a woman.

David Bowie wore make-up. Was he a woman? No, he was a bisexual or gay man cocking a snook at societal norms. Was he trans? Only if you agree that anyone not straight vanilla comes under the trans umbrella. which many people who are not straight vanilla vehemently reject.

Thing is, you can reject an idea, but it is no use to reject a fact: you might as well wear a badge saying "Don't blame me for gravity. I voted for velcro." Gravity doesn't care; things go on falling down whether you believe in it or not.

It’s still at the research stage. It’s a similar story for MRI scans. Researchers have found that there are detectable differences in the brains of people with ADHD but they are too subtle and variable to be used for diagnosis.

There is a similar story for ME/CFS too. Scientists have found that there are on average 8 genetic differences in people with ME/CFS but it is nothing specific enough so far that could be used as a diagnostic tool.

ADHD does seem to have an objective eye gaze test. Used when no history from childhood available. Can be done even using a webcam. Weirdly effective! But presumably on licence and costs too much for the NHS to use?

And the behaviour and appearance that is considered to be desirable and useful for the sexes to display, to retain the male dominated status quo.

• can't have

My biological sex is female, I don't particularly feel like a woman. We just got quite hung up in society that men can have feminine traits in the post war period but that's increasingly pointless as men share more child rearing. Gender seems to be constructed around dominant models of child rearing.

An awful lot of men seem to think with their gonads.....

No. It’s not. Gender is a set of abstract ‘rules’ based on nothing. The only thing that’s real is your biological sex. Aside from that anyone can wear, like and do anything, your genitals don’t dictate what you think and feel.

Unless they shattered when somebody dropped them....

"Could consider themselves ... " Maybe. But they wouldn't necessarily be different genders, would they?

What you consider yourself to be doesn't determine who or what you are, does it? Think, for instance, of that ex-friend of my daughter's, who I once heard say, "I'm cool, me." (He wasn't cool!)

Or think of that guy who works down the chip shop (swears he's Elvis). He's not really who (or what) he considers himself to be, is he?

Do you get the point?

Gender identity isn't about behaviour - otherwise no one could self id as any identity. It would be up to the observer or society to determine someone's gender.

Gender identity is completely determined by the individual. Two people behaving in exactly the same way could consider themselves different genders.

that's the crucial question.

What 'behaviour typically associated with' women are men who say they are women 'associated with'?

Biology: male.
Gender: behaviour typically associated with the male sex.
Gender identity: identity based upon the behaviour associated with the male sex.

Looks like you agree that transwomen are men, then.

Gender is the behaviour typically associated with your sex

So gender is based on how you conform with stereotypes?

Gender is real, gender identity is another elaboration on gender. Sex is your biology. Gender is the behaviour typically associated with your sex. Gender identity is an identity based upon your gender

lifestyle choices are not going to cure or circumvent the serious disabilitjes you list above - especially not the generic ones - because you can’t ‘improve’ your genetics with diet and exercise. If all tbe patient needs to do is lifestyle changes for the above conditions, then the diagnosis was probably wrong. But I’m sure you know that.

Better food and more exercise will make most people feel better, whatever their health is like.

I am offended by your use of the word “nebulous” . Those of us with those conditions are constantly being doubted and told we have made things up, or even if the diagnosis is believed, then we are exaggerating the symptoms for sympathy or to act as an excuse for being lazy or bad behavour. It is utterly nasty and incredibly draining.

I can’t comment on whether or not trans people pretend to have these conditions. Personally, I prefer to avoid sweeping generalizations about groups of people - such generalizations are usually inaccurate, plus it is mean.

i am formally diagnosed with a few of the conditions on your list myself (I’m not trans though). You are totally and utterly incorrect to describe the diagnostic criteria as “nebulous” at least for the conditions I have. However, I am not going to go into that because it really is going far off the topic. I am also offended.

Do I believe men can become women? No. Do I believe that some men believe they can become women? Maybe. Do I believe it’s a fetish/an attempt to get into women’s spaces? Maybe - for some at least.

Do I think trans women like women? Not really, no. I think they make a mockery of women. It’s like the Black and White Minstrel Show, or drag queens that portray women as bitchy, snarky, sarcastic, horrible people. When women portray men they are the handsome prince. When men portray women they are Widow Twankey. There is a middle age man who walks round my town dressed as a pubescent Britney Spears. Nobody can tell me that’s not a fetish. When I see him something at a really basic level physically recoils, like Michael Jackson or Dylan Mulvaney.

Well there is certainly an element of truth in what you say about the hysteria diagnosis in that it proves that the medical profession sometimes gets things wrong. But in the end, you could use that same argument about all diagnoses where there is no test to prove the person has it eg ADHD, ME/CFS.

There is no proof that gender dysphoria exists and there is also none that it doesn’t exist BUT there is enough evidence to convince doctors around the world that it does exist.

I’m not sure if I follow your comment about gender not being real because it is a social construct. We all live in society which runs on social constructs and they in turn impact on or cause health problems eg i’n not sure anorexia would exist if it wasn’t for our culture of idolizing thinness as beauty perfection.

Women were routinely diagnosed with hysteria at one time. Doesn’t make it a real illness.

Gender dysphoria is based on old sexist stereotypes. Body dysmorphia exists, as seen in anorexic patients, or those who have extreme cosmetic surgery (and one could argue that sex change surgery is included in this) but gender is a social construct, so it’s a delusion, like thinking you’re a mermaid or whatever.