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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Push and pull factors in transitioning

313 replies

GCScot · 16/06/2026 09:32

People's motivations in making a change can be categorised into 'push' and 'pull' factors. 'Push' factors are your dissatisfaction with your current state. 'Pull' factors are the perceived advantages of another state.

I started thinking about the possible push and pull factors for people transitioning their gender. It made me realise that there are two distinct groups:

Group 1 = mainly motivated by push factors. i.e. they are unhappy with their sexed body. They include:

  • Women/girls with internalised misogyny
  • Gay people with internalised homophobia
  • Non-genderconforming autistic people who have internalised sexist stereotypes as fact
  • Survivors of abuse/trauma who are trying to protect themselves from future abuse/trauma

Group 2 = mainly motivated by pull factors. i.e. they are attracted to being/being perceived to be the opposite sex. They include:

  • People who are sexually aroused by the idea of themselves being the opposite sex (AGP/AAP)
  • People who think they can gain a personal advantage (sporting/competitive/sexual access) by claiming to be the opposite sex

Group 1 are mainly children and young adults, especially girls. They have gender dysphoria. Because they are trying to permanently and convincingly escape their sexed bodies, they are more likely to undergo medical modifications (surgery, artificial hormones). They have a diverse range of vulnerabilities as a result of their own personal life experiences and the prejudices of society

Group 2 are mainly adult men. We might say they have gender euphoria. Because they aren't trying to escape their sexed bodies they are unlikely to undergo medical modification, preferring temporary and superficial modifications such as clothes, make up, prosthetics, names and pronouns. The majority of the aggressive vocal TRAs come from this group

TRAs deliberately merge the two groups

They know they can utilise the sincerity, vulnerability and innocence of Group 1:
Trans appears in childhood - it must be innate!
Trans appears in childhood - it can't be sexually motivated!
Trans people have gender dysphoria - they're vulnerable!
Look at the lengths they'll go to (surgery, hormones) - they must be genuine!

But when it comes to the motivations of trans people, the TRAs suddenly switch track. They emphasise the pull factor acting on Group 2 ("wanting to be a wo/man") rather than the push factor acting on Group 1 (trying to escape your sexed body). Because any detailed discussion of just why someone might want to escape their body would raise awkward questions about whether wanting to transition is really a cause for celebration and affirmation.

I think it's very important we distinguish between the two groups when discussing objections to gender ideology. They are very different groups with different motivations and consequences. I think part of the reason so many trans allies are resistant to changing their opinions or even discussing the issue is because most of the trans people they know are Group 1s. They recognise these people's sincerity and vulnerability and have been duped by Group 2 TRAs into not examining the underlying push and pull factors of transition

OP posts:
Seethlaw · 16/06/2026 18:45

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 18:41

It means a complete shift in how the world interacts with you every single day.
When living as a trans woman, your medical care, and how doctors listen to your symptoms change. The way you are spoken to in a professional setting, the biases you face in business, and the social expectations of how you communicate all change. You are treated, perceived, and judged by the exact same societal standards as any other woman.

You are treated, perceived, and judged by the exact same societal standards as any other woman.

This is only true if you pass perfectly. If you don't, then you are treated as a man who presents as a woman, which is an entirely different thing.

OldCrone · 16/06/2026 18:45

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 18:41

It means a complete shift in how the world interacts with you every single day.
When living as a trans woman, your medical care, and how doctors listen to your symptoms change. The way you are spoken to in a professional setting, the biases you face in business, and the social expectations of how you communicate all change. You are treated, perceived, and judged by the exact same societal standards as any other woman.

So it's all to do with how they're treated by other people, not what they do themselves?

Is there anything he actually does himself which is different from living as a man?

OldCrone · 16/06/2026 18:42

MoistVonL · 16/06/2026 18:31

I think Deer's position is pretty consistent.

She accepts the validity of transwomen as a group.
She doesn't advocate giving transwomen access to female single sex spaces.
She accords them the courtesy of preferred pronouns unless their behaviour shows they don't deserve that courtesy.

As a staunchly GC woman, I can understand and respect her opinion even though I subscribe to Barracker's Pronouns Are Rhohypnol.

Not everyone who agrees with using pronouns accepts the whole TRA nonsense of men in women's prisons etc.

But she said:
Living as a woman means navigating the world within the social, legal, and relational category of 'woman.'

Someone who isn't permitted in women only spaces is hardly "navigating the world within the social and legal category of 'woman'".

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 18:41

OldCrone · 16/06/2026 18:25

So if a man is living as a woman, can you give some examples of things that are different in his life from how they would be if he was living as a man?

It means a complete shift in how the world interacts with you every single day.
When living as a trans woman, your medical care, and how doctors listen to your symptoms change. The way you are spoken to in a professional setting, the biases you face in business, and the social expectations of how you communicate all change. You are treated, perceived, and judged by the exact same societal standards as any other woman.

murasaki · 16/06/2026 18:35

I find it odd that pronouns depend on behaviour.

MoistVonL · 16/06/2026 18:31

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:51

I have said multiple times now that I don’t think trans women should have access to women’s spaces

I think Deer's position is pretty consistent.

She accepts the validity of transwomen as a group.
She doesn't advocate giving transwomen access to female single sex spaces.
She accords them the courtesy of preferred pronouns unless their behaviour shows they don't deserve that courtesy.

As a staunchly GC woman, I can understand and respect her opinion even though I subscribe to Barracker's Pronouns Are Rhohypnol.

Not everyone who agrees with using pronouns accepts the whole TRA nonsense of men in women's prisons etc.

Apollo441 · 16/06/2026 18:30

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:51

I have said multiple times now that I don’t think trans women should have access to women’s spaces

Can I ask why you don't thinks transwomen should be in women's spaces? Surely you don't think we have valid concerns?

murasaki · 16/06/2026 18:26

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 18:19

Living as a woman means navigating the world within the social, legal, and relational category of 'woman.'

Also, you said transwomen shouldn't be permitted in female single sex spaces, so how does that square with what you said above?

murasaki · 16/06/2026 18:26

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 18:19

Living as a woman means navigating the world within the social, legal, and relational category of 'woman.'

And what does that really mean?

OldCrone · 16/06/2026 18:25

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 18:19

Living as a woman means navigating the world within the social, legal, and relational category of 'woman.'

So if a man is living as a woman, can you give some examples of things that are different in his life from how they would be if he was living as a man?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/06/2026 18:20

Ah, circular definitions have made an appearance I see.

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 18:19

murasaki · 16/06/2026 18:16

So, time for the great unanswered question, what does living as a woman mean? Please answer without referring to clothing, hair length and make up.

Thanks, I've been waiting for a coherent answer to this one for years now.

Living as a woman means navigating the world within the social, legal, and relational category of 'woman.'

murasaki · 16/06/2026 18:16

So, time for the great unanswered question, what does living as a woman mean? Please answer without referring to clothing, hair length and make up.

Thanks, I've been waiting for a coherent answer to this one for years now.

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 18:14

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 18:02

So why use the word 'woman'?

I don’t believe it’s as black and white as you think it is. The reality for a lot of trans people is that they are female and live as a man, or male and live as a woman.

murasaki · 16/06/2026 18:04

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 18:02

So why use the word 'woman'?

Or she for any of them.

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 18:02

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:59

Yes, a trans woman is male

Edited

So why use the word 'woman'?

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:59

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 17:55

So a man then?

Yes, a trans woman is male

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 17:55

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:53

I have said he’s a trans woman

So a man then?

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:53

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 17:50

But you also think he's a woman ...

So you can understand our confusion, I'm sure

I have said he’s a trans woman

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:51

Apollo441 · 16/06/2026 17:49

Nice try. By allowing tranwomen into women's spaces YOU are putting sexual assault aside. You want to deal with it after the event. We hold that this is unacceptable. See the issue?

I have said multiple times now that I don’t think trans women should have access to women’s spaces

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 17:50

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:27

No, I feel no obligation to call that person ‘she’. He is a serial sex offender and I think it’s offensive to refer to him as ‘she’.

I haven’t said anywhere that women should share spaces with him or other trans women…

But you also think he's a woman ...

So you can understand our confusion, I'm sure

murasaki · 16/06/2026 17:50

Apollo441 · 16/06/2026 17:49

Nice try. By allowing tranwomen into women's spaces YOU are putting sexual assault aside. You want to deal with it after the event. We hold that this is unacceptable. See the issue?

Exactly, we don't know which of them are like this, so it's a hard no to all.

Apollo441 · 16/06/2026 17:49

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:44

Imagine telling someone to put 'sexual assault aside' just so you can argue about pronouns. Their behaviour is way more important than their identity to me.

Nice try. By allowing tranwomen into women's spaces YOU are putting sexual assault aside. You want to deal with it after the event. We hold that this is unacceptable. See the issue?

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 17:44

murasaki · 16/06/2026 17:32

But what's the difference between him amd other transwomen? Sexual assault aside? If you call some she, surely you have to call then all she.

Your willing cognitive dissonance is baffling if not surprising to me. It's all a bit Sturgeon.

Imagine telling someone to put 'sexual assault aside' just so you can argue about pronouns. Their behaviour is way more important than their identity to me.

ByTheRiverside · 16/06/2026 17:36

TransParentlyAnnoyed · 16/06/2026 10:49

Well done speaking to absolutely zero trans people, failing to read what they and their families have to say - and absorbing a lot of online propaganda.

Trans people are born, not made. They are a tiny minority.

Trans boys and men are more at risk when they transition. They experience more sexual harassment and abuse than before. It's incredibly ignorant of you not to know this - but unsurprising, I suppose.

Dear god seek help. Wasting your life explaining why a minority you don't belong to exists is not normal behaviour. Conspiracy theories are not people, life is not a computer game and malicious transphobia (which is what all of the above is) is not a public service.

Mary Whitehouse would've been proud of you, but Dr Science is running screaming from the building.

Don't you get bored of coming here, to a place that has seen through this style of reasoning, making cases that get dismantled, and then repeating it forever?

It's like reading an anti-vaxx ramble.