Push and pull factors in transitioning

That is exactly the kind of social friction I am talking about.

I wouldn't call that friction at all, personally.

But slip-ups like that aren’t a universal experience.

Really? I mean, go on trans forums, and read all the posts where people lament being misgendered or clocked, sometimes months after they thought they passed perfectly, and bazillions of people answer with their own similar experiences. It may not be universal, but it's certainly very common.

people slipping up and revealing they don’t see you as a man.

What a bizarre way to say that some people recognise sex even in someone who has taken steps to conceal their actual sex.

They're not 'slipping up', they're just speaking honestly according to observations that they've made about the person in front of them.

You can only say it's slipping up if there's an expectation that people will always ignore their own observations and participate in the fantasy that someone has changed sex even when their actual sex is completely obvious.

But slip-ups like that aren’t a universal experience.

Seriously? You think the vast majority of trans identifying people are not correctly identified by their sex with relative frequency?

I chatted to a young woman at the park last month - I congratulated her on having a mullet and actually making it look good, which as a child of the 1980s I thought impossible. She said "you should see my boyfriend's, his is even better."

A few moments later her partner, a petite young woman, joined us. She had the distinctive voice of a woman on testosterone and was clearly a transman. We continued to chat and I was friendly and polite, but in no way did I perceive this 5'2" lass with tiny hands and female hips and shoulders as a bloke.

There is a relatively high population of trans identifying people in my multi-university city. A number of my children's friends are trans, and a number of my friends' children are trans. We are all WELL aware of what sex they are.

I’m sorry you’ve had the experience of people slipping up and revealing they don’t see you as a man. That is exactly the kind of social friction I am talking about. Those slip-ups are the signs that show you how people actually perceive you. But slip-ups like that aren’t a universal experience.

Why would they not treat trans people as we want to be treated?
I completely agree that some people absolutely would do that, but there are people out there who wouldn’t hesitate to antagonise a trans person. Some people wouldn’t go out of their way to be rude but may still express confusion.

Don't worry, I'm hard to offend :P And hey, I know where I'm posting :D I'm happy to answer any question people might have.

Not kind, just practical. Why would they not treat trans people as we want to be treated? Why would they go out of their way to antagonise us? There would be literally no point to them doing that.

Just to be clear: I have personal experience of this. Entirely pleasant people all around me - some of whom have at one time or another slipped up and revealed that they don't actually see me as a man.

I think that’s a bit of a stretch. It assumes every single interaction is taking place with someone who is just being kind. We live in a world where that is an impossibility.

Half of the TRA organise Transgender Day of Visibility so that we can be taught how to act with a trans person.

Then the other half can pretend that we simply don't know they are men.

The category can be "man who presents as a woman" without it leading to any friction. Assuming that anyone who shows no problem around a trans person necessarily sees them as the other sex is unfounded.

If you don't think this is happening you are completely delusional

And yet, there are male people in the media who had taken puberty blockers at the earliest opportunity and still are able to be reliably correctly identified as being male.

You might not be able to reliably correctly identify the sex category of male people, but please don’t assume that your experience is typical.

We don’t need to read minds to understand human interactions. Social friction isn’t silent. If the world didn't perceive someone as a woman, it wouldn't be a well-kept secret. The double-takes, awkward stumbles, and daily friction would make it glaringly obvious.
When daily life is entirely frictionless and mundane, it’s because the human brain has already automatically categorized what’s in front of it and moved on.

How would a man know if they are treated the same as women?

They could be treated differently after 'transition', but that isnt the same as how women are treated.

Everyone will still be completely clear he's a man

Mostly not so much that they look female after more than a cursory glance. And not when they move. Amd what are you thoughts on the 90 odd percent that retain their penises, are they to be called 'she' too?

I think you’re ignoring the obvious here. The trans women this applies to will have been on HRT for many years and their appearance will have changed.

Ah, so living ‘as a woman’ is meaningless

“You are treated, perceived, and judged by the exact same societal standards as any other woman.”

Not if any person has even a doubt that the person is female and is male. I would say that also if a person who has a trans identity wears things such as lanyards etc, they are more likely to be judged by the exact same societal standards as any other person with a transgender identity.

It is a very overconfident statement to make that any male is being held to the exact same societal standard as a female person.

Hilarious!
All human beings are born. No one is born with an innate desire to change their sex, in fact until late toddlerhood, no one really has any concept of their sex.

What does a man do when living as a transwoman to cause other people to act differently towards him from how they would act if he was living as a man? Is it in the way he dresses, or the way he speaks, or some aspect of his behaviour?

He has to do something differently, otherwise people would just treat him as a man.

You are treated, perceived, and judged by the exact same societal standards as any other woman.

Ok, jumped the shark on that one!

No, not in the slightest. Transwomen are not held to any of the same standards as actual women. Sacred bloody caste.

The fact that society believes a man who says he's a woman, instead of a woman who says he’s not, is proof that society knows exactly who is the man and who is the woman."
- Jen Izaakson

Spinny skirt, presumably.

I don't - just how much politeness or slack I give someone depends on whether I think they are a decent person or not.

If Deer doesn't think they are women, but rather people who prefer to present in a feminised manner and wish to be referred to as she/her, whether she goes along with it can depend on whether she thinks they are dodgy chancers or not.