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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Push and pull factors in transitioning

313 replies

GCScot · 16/06/2026 09:32

People's motivations in making a change can be categorised into 'push' and 'pull' factors. 'Push' factors are your dissatisfaction with your current state. 'Pull' factors are the perceived advantages of another state.

I started thinking about the possible push and pull factors for people transitioning their gender. It made me realise that there are two distinct groups:

Group 1 = mainly motivated by push factors. i.e. they are unhappy with their sexed body. They include:

  • Women/girls with internalised misogyny
  • Gay people with internalised homophobia
  • Non-genderconforming autistic people who have internalised sexist stereotypes as fact
  • Survivors of abuse/trauma who are trying to protect themselves from future abuse/trauma

Group 2 = mainly motivated by pull factors. i.e. they are attracted to being/being perceived to be the opposite sex. They include:

  • People who are sexually aroused by the idea of themselves being the opposite sex (AGP/AAP)
  • People who think they can gain a personal advantage (sporting/competitive/sexual access) by claiming to be the opposite sex

Group 1 are mainly children and young adults, especially girls. They have gender dysphoria. Because they are trying to permanently and convincingly escape their sexed bodies, they are more likely to undergo medical modifications (surgery, artificial hormones). They have a diverse range of vulnerabilities as a result of their own personal life experiences and the prejudices of society

Group 2 are mainly adult men. We might say they have gender euphoria. Because they aren't trying to escape their sexed bodies they are unlikely to undergo medical modification, preferring temporary and superficial modifications such as clothes, make up, prosthetics, names and pronouns. The majority of the aggressive vocal TRAs come from this group

TRAs deliberately merge the two groups

They know they can utilise the sincerity, vulnerability and innocence of Group 1:
Trans appears in childhood - it must be innate!
Trans appears in childhood - it can't be sexually motivated!
Trans people have gender dysphoria - they're vulnerable!
Look at the lengths they'll go to (surgery, hormones) - they must be genuine!

But when it comes to the motivations of trans people, the TRAs suddenly switch track. They emphasise the pull factor acting on Group 2 ("wanting to be a wo/man") rather than the push factor acting on Group 1 (trying to escape your sexed body). Because any detailed discussion of just why someone might want to escape their body would raise awkward questions about whether wanting to transition is really a cause for celebration and affirmation.

I think it's very important we distinguish between the two groups when discussing objections to gender ideology. They are very different groups with different motivations and consequences. I think part of the reason so many trans allies are resistant to changing their opinions or even discussing the issue is because most of the trans people they know are Group 1s. They recognise these people's sincerity and vulnerability and have been duped by Group 2 TRAs into not examining the underlying push and pull factors of transition

OP posts:
OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 22:38

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 21:56

But you can't give any actual examples ...

What about NikkieTutorials? She was under the spotlight for many years, and it was a complete shock when she was forced to come out.

GCScot · 16/06/2026 22:04

Soontobe60 · 16/06/2026 17:25

There’s one other type of people who identify as trans. They are what I would once have called the ‘misfits’ of society. They would have been kids on the periphery of all the different social groups in their teens, not sporty, not clever, not musical, not attractive. They would have been children who went under the radar in school.
Now, those very same people have discovered that if they self identify as trans (and often physically disabled and ND), they garner a great deal of attention because suddenly it’s cool to be ‘marginalised’; they see celebrities championing their cause, MPs telling parliament that these people deserve love, and kindness, and support - even going so far as telling them that these people deserve laws to be changed so that men can have unfettered access to women’s spaces, and women should be able to get their breasts removed as its empowerment. So now, those once considered misfits are at the apex of the pyramid of identity.

Yes, I think this makes sense. They're experiencing both push and pull factors. Not wanting to be misfits/unpopular = push; wanting to find a tribe/appreciation/understanding = pull?

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 21:56

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:52

Do you have anything other than bad faith arguments? I never said I’m keen for them to be seen as women, just that some will be seen that way

But you can't give any actual examples ...

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 21:56

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:40

No, because whoever I name will never meet your impossible standards. You will pick out some feature that wouldn’t even register if you didn’t know. Knowledge changes perception.

These 'impossible standards' you reference are simply females recognising male physiology, no matter what the make up / hair / dress.

I cannot think of a single trans identifying man in the public eye that genuinely passes. Not even the ones who were puberty blocked.

ElenOfTheWays · 16/06/2026 21:55

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 18:41

It means a complete shift in how the world interacts with you every single day.
When living as a trans woman, your medical care, and how doctors listen to your symptoms change. The way you are spoken to in a professional setting, the biases you face in business, and the social expectations of how you communicate all change. You are treated, perceived, and judged by the exact same societal standards as any other woman.

All evidence to the contrary
We see it all the time. These men are entirely pandered to and given grovelling amounts of validation BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS THEY ARE MEN.
They are NOT treated like women are.

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:54

murasaki · 16/06/2026 21:53

But everyone here is telling you that's not the case.

An echo chamber agreeing with itself doesn't make an illogical argument logical

murasaki · 16/06/2026 21:54

Also you may have mistaken an argument for a question. You do seem invested in convincing women that they can't tell. I merely asked what your motivation for that is, as I'm interested.

murasaki · 16/06/2026 21:53

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:52

Do you have anything other than bad faith arguments? I never said I’m keen for them to be seen as women, just that some will be seen that way

But everyone here is telling you that's not the case.

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:52

murasaki · 16/06/2026 21:46

Why are you so keen for women to see these men as women when you yourself said that they are male?

Do you have anything other than bad faith arguments? I never said I’m keen for them to be seen as women, just that some will be seen that way

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 16/06/2026 21:50

Any man who has managed to convince himself that he is a woman is going to find it quite straightforward to convince himself that all his social interactions are frictionless.

nutmeg7 · 16/06/2026 21:47

There really is a difference between people being polite enough, or unsure of their safety enough not to comment, and people not actually clocking that someone is trans.

I do think that trans women truly do not understand being female, and what it means to have navigated the world in a weaker, more vulnerable body our whole lives. The knowledge that we can be badly hurt if a man chooses to do so is ingrained.

Women are not about to pick a fight with a trans women in a female space if they are on their own by saying “oi you’re a man!”

murasaki · 16/06/2026 21:46

Why are you so keen for women to see these men as women when you yourself said that they are male?

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:40

Pingponghavoc · 16/06/2026 21:32

Can you name a celebrity who, if we didnt know they were trans, would experience frictionless social interactions?

No, because whoever I name will never meet your impossible standards. You will pick out some feature that wouldn’t even register if you didn’t know. Knowledge changes perception.

Pingponghavoc · 16/06/2026 21:32

Can you name a celebrity who, if we didnt know they were trans, would experience frictionless social interactions?

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 21:24

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:22

So it seems pretty improbable that this person thinks they pass if people who don’t know her just see a man

I have no idea what this person thinks, but there is certainly none of the social 'friction' you are talking about.

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:22

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 21:11

Yes

So it seems pretty improbable that this person thinks they pass if people who don’t know her just see a man

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:16

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 16/06/2026 21:13

Or an indication of them resolving their confusion fast enough to mask it. I would hate to make someone uncomfortable so have never done the ‘looking someone up and down’ thing. The corners of my eyes are exceptional at gathering more info while I carefully look elsewhere so as not to unsettle someone.

Every single person always resolves their confusion instantly?

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 16/06/2026 21:13

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:08

Do you see that you can’t expect people not to express confusion when they are indeed confused?
You can’t expect the world to see you as the other sex, simply by wanting it.
Yes, thank you! That is exactly my point. There is nothing stopping those things from happening if people see you as ambiguous or not as the sex you’re presenting as.

The lack of those things happening is an indication that you blend in well.

Or an indication of them resolving their confusion fast enough to mask it. I would hate to make someone uncomfortable so have never done the ‘looking someone up and down’ thing. The corners of my eyes are exceptional at gathering more info while I carefully look elsewhere so as not to unsettle someone.

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 21:11

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:09

If you didn’t know there was a trans women there, would you have just referred to him as a man?

Yes

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:09

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 21:06

Men larping as women seem to take women not yelling at them 'you're a man' as evidence that they are seen as women.

Its complete nonsense. Virtually no man 'passes' as a woman.

To give you an example. My son belongs to a club as part of a hobby he is into. There is a trans identified man in this club. I had never met this man, but my husband told me about him.

This weekend I met him for the first time and not only did he not pass as a woman, but it took me a significant amount of time to figure out that he was the trans identified man in question. He just looks like a man with long hair. I eventually clocked the boobs and 'girly' t shirt. But he looks 100% male.

Perhaps he thinks he passes as no one explicitly calls him out. But it couldn't be further from the truth.

If you didn’t know there was a trans women there, would you have just referred to him as a man?

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 21:08

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 16/06/2026 20:57

Why would they not treat trans people as we want to be treated?
I completely agree that some people absolutely would do that, but there are people out there who wouldn’t hesitate to antagonise a trans person. Some people wouldn’t go out of their way to be rude but may still express confusion.

@OneDarkDeer you describe ‘they may express confusion’ as ‘not how we want to be treated’.
Do you see that you can’t expect people not to express confusion when they are indeed confused?
You can’t expect the world to see you as the other sex, simply by wanting it. You are free to present as you wish, but other people’s brains will always process the information in the way that makes sense to them.
-petite person with small hands and a whispy beard- trans identifying female.
-person in dress with masculine gait and exaggerated feminine mannerisms- trans identifying male.

Do you see that you can’t expect people not to express confusion when they are indeed confused?
You can’t expect the world to see you as the other sex, simply by wanting it.
Yes, thank you! That is exactly my point. There is nothing stopping those things from happening if people see you as ambiguous or not as the sex you’re presenting as.

The lack of those things happening is an indication that you blend in well.

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2026 21:06

Men larping as women seem to take women not yelling at them 'you're a man' as evidence that they are seen as women.

Its complete nonsense. Virtually no man 'passes' as a woman.

To give you an example. My son belongs to a club as part of a hobby he is into. There is a trans identified man in this club. I had never met this man, but my husband told me about him.

This weekend I met him for the first time and not only did he not pass as a woman, but it took me a significant amount of time to figure out that he was the trans identified man in question. He just looks like a man with long hair. I eventually clocked the boobs and 'girly' t shirt. But he looks 100% male.

Perhaps he thinks he passes as no one explicitly calls him out. But it couldn't be further from the truth.

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 16/06/2026 20:57

Why would they not treat trans people as we want to be treated?
I completely agree that some people absolutely would do that, but there are people out there who wouldn’t hesitate to antagonise a trans person. Some people wouldn’t go out of their way to be rude but may still express confusion.

@OneDarkDeer you describe ‘they may express confusion’ as ‘not how we want to be treated’.
Do you see that you can’t expect people not to express confusion when they are indeed confused?
You can’t expect the world to see you as the other sex, simply by wanting it. You are free to present as you wish, but other people’s brains will always process the information in the way that makes sense to them.
-petite person with small hands and a whispy beard- trans identifying female.
-person in dress with masculine gait and exaggerated feminine mannerisms- trans identifying male.

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 20:25

Seethlaw · 16/06/2026 20:17

That is exactly the kind of social friction I am talking about.

I wouldn't call that friction at all, personally.

But slip-ups like that aren’t a universal experience.

Really? I mean, go on trans forums, and read all the posts where people lament being misgendered or clocked, sometimes months after they thought they passed perfectly, and bazillions of people answer with their own similar experiences. It may not be universal, but it's certainly very common.

Exactly. When people get clocked, it breaks through into reality, causes an interaction or a slip-up, and they notice it. If it's common but explicitly not universal, then we agree. Some people experience that constant friction, and some live entirely frictionless lives

MoistVonL · 16/06/2026 20:23

OneDarkDeer · 16/06/2026 19:36

I think that’s a bit of a stretch. It assumes every single interaction is taking place with someone who is just being kind. We live in a world where that is an impossibility.

No, they are not "being kind."

They are being polite,

  • or they are true believers in gender ideology,
  • or they are complying because of Vaclav Havel's Grocer parable
  • or they work for an organisation captured by trans ideology and can't afford to risk their livelihood
  • or they have kids caught up in this and can't risk alienation
  • or they bought Stonewall's lie that this is the new gay rights battle
  • or they think every transwoman has had his penis cut off and years of medical interventions and is like that nice woman on Coronation Street

Kind is only the thin edge of the wedge.