Push and pull factors in transitioning

India Willoughby is an Everton fan.

Okay. Give us one such characteristic. Just one.

Already have presentation.

I don't have to prove that something that doesn't exist is unfalsifiable.

"Evidence of Absence: If you search an area thoroughly and find no evidence of something that should be there, you can conclude it likely doesn't exist. For example, if you thoroughly check a sealed, empty room, you can prove there is no adult elephant inside. 1, 2]"

You could eliminate reasons that prove that personality traits & beliefs influence gender identification….but you can't.

Not all trans people are out of the closet & as such don't express their gender identity.

And lots of trans people who are out of the closet don't express the gender stereotypes of the gender identity you think they ought to have.

Never said it did. What I said was it is evidence of it because you asked for how this could be done.

No, that wasn't what I asked. What I asked was, "Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?" You haven't answered that so far.

Precisely. It's a purely subjective choice, which may or may not be reflected in one's presentation and behaviour. Thus, arguing that one's presentation and behaviour is indicative of one's subjective choice is nonsense.

I said presentation & behaviour can be evidence of being trans not a qualification for being trans. Not all trans people are out of the closet & as such don't express their gender identity.

Exactly. Behaviour and presentation do not inform as to gender identity.

Never said it did. What I said was it is evidence of it because you asked for how this could be done.

Its word salad because he's trying to deflect the real question - why do men want to be women?

If you are going to act in bad faith & pretend there are no obvious behavioural characteristics like presentation & interests that distinguishes men from women then we are done here.

Okay. Give us one such characteristic. Just one.

You asserted gender identification as unfalsifiable so still waiting.

I don't have to prove that something that doesn't exist is unfalsifiable.

I’ve seen this too in the push factors don’t have to be abuse, looking for escape from their sexed body etc. but also agree with the less dodgy pull factors.

Many of the young trans males I know are autistic, are gamers, sometimes taking on female avatars in their games, feel ‘different’ and live a lot of their lives online, participate heavily in online chat rooms like Discord where they come across type 2 TWs who talk to them about being trans. Or maybe it’s a type 1 trans who is sharing their new found beliefs.

But once the idea is suggested to them, it takes root, becomes a kind of intrusive thought, and they start growing their hair, wearing makeup and using she/her. With rigid, black and white thinking plus entitlement it becomes incredibly difficult to interrupt the belief. They’re not predatory. Just messed up.

And because any theory of mind is weak or absent, they can’t or don’t recognise other’s social cues that are saying ‘you’re male’ ie a distraught woman in a toilet. In their heads, they now have a female gender. Yet, they also reference the male sex, might not disagree they have a male sexed body, and are looking for a female sexed bodied partner. It’s just that, to them, gender is or ought to be more important than sex. They’ve been fed such a load of messed up word salad by the genderists and the AGPs, they completely accept it.

This feels true too ie that The other side only see group 1 and ignore group 2. Until they are honest and acknowledge group 2 exists there will be no meaningful dialog. We acknowledge group 1 but point out the difficulty/impossibility of framing any law that excludes group 2.

It's not just you. I just scroll through. 🥱

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

Trying to justify rejecting & being abusive to yout own trans children (one example I see here a lot - what the hell is wrong with parents who fo that?!) is a bit different.

What abusive behaviour to trans children are you referring to? What constitutes abuse?

"Or another identity": please explain why you reject the existence of transman gender.

Because 'trans man gender' is a meaningless term. It doesn't specify what characteristic about trans man you are identifying with.You yourself claimed it could mean identifying with the opposite sex traits rather than their gendered behaviours which trans men also identify with. In other words there could be an association with the psychological or sex traits that the 'trans man gender' doesn't tell you. But I do appreciate the distinction & how 'gender' as its understood broadly doesn't account for trans people like yourselves.

Observable behaviour which can point to a thousand different things. Not exactly a proof of the existence of anything in particular.

If you are going to act in bad faith & pretend there are no obvious behavioural characteristics like presentation & interests that distinguishes men from women then we are done here.

As you yourself posted: "It is considered invalid reasoning to present a claim and then demand that others disprove it, rather than providing evidence for the assertion yourself." So I don't have to present any evidence.

You asserted gender identification as unfalsifiable so still waiting.

Emily, how many genders do you consider there to be? You are defining as I understand it a gender as a cluster of behaviours and fashions that are more typically male than female or more typically female than male in a particular culture? Could you give some examples of behaviours that you'd associate with the male gender, the female gender, and the nonbinary gender or any other genders?

For example being attracted to women is a behaviour that is way more common in men because most people are heterosexual. Is that part of your man-gender set of behaviours?

Across all the TRA discourse the concept of 'non binary' is uniquely stupid.

If we are talking about sex, no one is 'non-binary'

If we are talking about gender stereotypes, everyone is 'non binary'

Do people seriously think that there are humans out there who conform to every single sex stereotype there is? And that these humans are the vast majority? Seriously?

just about everyone is non-binary if the category is defined as identifying as the sex you were born.

I don’t identify as a woman, I am one but I don’t consider myself conforming to stereotypes that are ‘woman’ stereotypes.

Sorry to ask. I know what boner is. And tucking. And moisturising. So for the first one, this man gets excited when he puts moisturiser on his face? Is that what it means? And if yes, why?

I get why for the tucking one, well I 🤔 I do , he’s turned himself on by the thought of himself hiding his male parts in tucking, because he's turned on by the thought of himself as female…

For the second one, girls who’ve transitioned, he is talking about biological females who think they are male, and he’s attracted to that, so he’s hetrosexual? Therefore classic AGP?

The idea of trait based class groups would be like renaming my cat as a dog if she slept in a kennel, or fetched a stick.

A trans woman is a man who wants to be a woman. They often observe woman and try to replicate their appearance and behaviour, because its all they can do - all deliberately. They'd cant change sex, so they dismiss sex as relevant.

If there wasn't women coded clothes, women stopped wearing make up, the sexes were treated more similarly, trans couldn't exist. And i dont think people would want to identify as trans.

People are diagnosed with gender dysphoria, not being the opposite sex, or being a women or man.

Its a legal fiction that gives men female id. But again, that doesnt make a man a woman, it just allows him to be treated as one in some situations. Thats not belonging to a group that has that right all of the time.

Is it just me or is Emily spouting utter gibberish?

And here we are, explaining away the experience of trans people.

Transplaining?

identity is an individually subjective values /beliefs based choice

Precisely. It's a purely subjective choice, which may or may not be reflected in one's presentation and behaviour. Thus, arguing that one's presentation and behaviour is indicative of one's subjective choice is nonsense.

A femme natal male or butch natal female could go either way as in identify with being cis or trans.

Exactly. Behaviour and presentation do not inform as to gender identity.

You're making my points.

A mental illness diagnosis relies on self-reporting of actual, defined, practical symptoms. Gender ID relies on self-reporting of an undefined, internal feeling, which can never be observed. How you can insist on comparing the two mystifies me.

I already told you observed behaviours are the evidence of GI. Still waiting for you to prove your claim can't be evidenced.

Femme gay men. Butch lesbians. For example.

Just to recap, this was relavant to this comment:

Those behaviours are already "symptoms" of plenty of other things, such as sexuailty or just plain personality. Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?

As I mentioned upthread, identity is an individually subjective values /beliefs based choice. A femme natal male or butch natal female could go either way as in identify with being cis or trans. It's up to their belief system whether they define themselves based on gender or sex. That their gender non conformity is part of their sexual orientation or personality doesn't invalidate gender categories.

Sometimes you can't tell that a person is depressed by observing them, yes, because they mask well.

However, if the treatment works, their behaviour and outlook change, and those changes are visible. If there are no such changes, there's cause to worry that the treatment is not working.

a group of people in a society who share particular qualities or ways of behaving which that society associates with being male, female, or another identity:

"Or another identity": please explain why you reject the existence of transman gender.

I already pointed to my evidence: Observable behaviour.

Observable behaviour which can point to a thousand different things. Not exactly a proof of the existence of anything in particular.

Still waiting for yours.

As you yourself posted: "It is considered invalid reasoning to present a claim and then demand that others disprove it, rather than providing evidence for the assertion yourself." So I don't have to present any evidence.

So are you suggesting depression & anxiety don't exist because they are unfalsifiable?
I never said they are unfalsifiable. I said they are not directly observable - no, correction, I said that sometimes, depression is not directly observable. However, it becomes blatant once you treat that depression and it recedes, with very visible changes in behaviour and outlook. Same with anxiety.

So you can't tell if a person is depressed by observing them, but you can tell they have been treated for depression by observing them?

Its relevant because you are claiming there's no way of proving gender ID & there is with mental illness even tho they both rely on self reporting.

A mental illness diagnosis relies on self-reporting of actual, defined, practical symptoms. Gender ID relies on self-reporting of an undefined, internal feeling, which can never be observed. How you can insist on comparing the two mystifies me.

What do you mean by "sexuality"?

Femme gay men. Butch lesbians. For example.

What is the definition of gender according to you?

gender
noun
uk
/ˈdʒen.dər/ us
/ˈdʒen.dɚ/
gender noun (PEOPLE)
Add to word list
B2 [ C or U ]
a group of people in a society who share particular qualities or ways of behaving which that society associates with being male, female, or another identity:

In any case for trans people who do identify with gender there are.
"For people who believe A, then A exists". True, and pointless.

I already pointed to my evidence: Observable behaviour.

Still waiting for yours.

Because I happen to know the definition of gender & trans isn't it.

What is the definition of gender according to you?

In any case for trans people who do identify with gender there are.

"For people who believe A, then A exists". True, and pointless.