Push and pull factors in transitioning

You could apply this 'theory' for any ideology including gender critical feminism:

Group 1 = mainly motivated by push factors.

Women & Men with gender insecurities/complexes
Women with internalised misandry
Men with internalised misogyny
Women & Men with conformist tendencies
Women & Men with victimhood complexes

Group 2 = mainly motivated by pull factors

People who think they can gain a personal advantage by exploiting trans bashing to gain political power.

People who think they can gain a personal advantage by seeking attention when they have lost relevance.

People who think they can gain a personal advantage by bashing trans people as a business model.

People who think they can gain a personal advantage by elevating themselves a la Suffragettes/Crusaders AKA hero complex.

If you want to play denial two can play.

The point is on average men & women are distinguished by presentation. What happens individually or at the tail end is irrelevant to the category existing AND people identifying with the norm.

On average, yes. Which means you can use this system to discuss populations, not individuals. Ie. it's not any kind of evidence regarding individuals, and you can't argue that individual presentation is evidence of the existence of that thing you call gender identity.

Well you would need to disprove the scientifically supported findings that hormones & genes influence gendered behaviours & they are shared by the sexes . Of course you are welcome to disprove their findings but I won't hold my breath.

Why would I need to do that, since those findings have exactly zero to do with gender identity? Hormones, genes, sex: not gender identity.

What is a biological variation zone?

Irrelevant. Most trans people are very firmly outside of that biological variation zone.

There's this thing called 'biological variation' hope that helps.

There's this thing called 'biological variation' hope that helps.

Gender being a spectrum refers to a scale masculine & feminine behaviour not that there isn't any evidence of it. Might help if you familiarise yourself with terms to save your confusion.

Says you. Prove it.

Like you 'proved' it with mental illness? There's this thing called 'inconsistency'.
I provided evidence: there's this thing called 'science'. Still waiting for yours. Science called, btw & said not to bother.

I certainly agree that the genetic and chromosomal hard drive does condition and shape certain types of trait ( the software) in males and females. And that is why men who 'identify as' women still retain their male characteristics.

Gender is a spectrum that isn't limited to 1950's pin up movie stars. Just like women & men, trans women & trans men express their identity on a spectrum.

Precisely. Which is why you can't use presentation or other forms of adherence (or lack thereof) to gender stereotypes as evidence of anything.

Because it exists.

Says you. Prove it.

Except presentation is not enough to distinguish between a man, a butch lesbian, and a transman, for example. So no, it's not an "obvious behavioural characteristics [...] that distinguishes men from women", obviously.

The point is on average men & women are distinguished by presentation. What happens individually or at the tail end is irrelevant to the category existing AND people identifying with the norm.

Precisely. All the evidence you've provided can very easily be attributed to entirely different things. Thus the evidence points to the non-existence of gender identity.

Yes but you can't eliminate gender identification being the point.

You're putting the cart before the horses. You're positing the existence of gender identity in the first place. I'm arguing that nothing influences gender identification because gender identification doesn't exist.

Well you would need to disprove the scientifically supported findings that hormones & genes influence gendered behaviours & they are shared by the sexes . Of course you are welcome to disprove their findings but I won't hold my breath.

This is incoherent.

Gender identification by its very definition requires an identification with a gender type as in man woman or non binary. There is no 'trans man' gender.

Except presentation is not enough to distinguish between a man, a butch lesbian, and a transman, for example. So no, it's not an "obvious behavioural characteristics [...] that distinguishes men from women", obviously.

The point is on average men & women are distinguished by presentation. What happens individually or at the tail end is irrelevant to the category existing AND people identifying with the norm.

Precisely. All the evidence you've provided can very easily be attributed to entirely different things. Thus the evidence points to the non-existence of gender identity.

Yes but you can't eliminate gender identification being the point.

You're putting the cart before the horses. You're positing the existence of gender identity in the first place. I'm arguing that nothing influences gender identification because gender identification doesn't exist.

Well you would need to disprove the scientifically supported findings that hormones & genes influence gendered behaviours & they are shared by the sexes . Of course you are welcome to disprove their findings but I won't hold my breath.

Bailey's gonna Bailey

And lots of trans people who are out of the closet don't express the gender stereotypes of the gender identity you think they ought to have.

Gender is a spectrum that isn't limited to 1950's pin up movie stars. Just like women & men, trans women & trans men express their identity on a spectrum.

No, that wasn't what I asked.

Yes you did. That's what triggered our whole mental illness discussion remember?

What I asked was, "Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?" You haven't answered that so far.

Because it exists.

Already have presentation.

Except presentation is not enough to distinguish between a man, a butch lesbian, and a transman, for example. So no, it's not an "obvious behavioural characteristics [...] that distinguishes men from women", obviously.

"Evidence of Absence: If you search an area thoroughly and find no evidence of something that should be there, you can conclude it likely doesn't exist. For example, if you thoroughly check a sealed, empty room, you can prove there is no adult elephant inside. "

Precisely. All the evidence you've provided can very easily be attributed to entirely different things. Thus the evidence points to the non-existence of gender identity.

You could eliminate reasons that prove that personality traits & beliefs influence gender identification….but you can't.

You're putting the cart before the horses. You're positing the existence of gender identity in the first place. I'm arguing that nothing influences gender identification because gender identification doesn't exist.

Is it just me or is Emily spouting utter gibberish?

Identifying 'with' someone or something suggests empathy and fellow feeling, whereas identifying 'as' something or someone is suggestive of a performance or a role.

If men really identified with women they would have more respect and more consideration for the reason we have spaces set aside for female people.

Men identifying as women put themselves, and their feelings, first. Everyone must accommodate them and centre their feelings in everything.

By the very act of identifying with something suggests an association with the category in some way. You can't identify with nothing.

@Seethlaw you’re on fire 🔥 this morning. Am enjoying your systematic logical deconstruction of gender arguments.

Edited to add: unfortunately it’s a lost cause against genderist thinking but I’m still enjoying reading your arguments.

@Seethlaw you’re on fire 🔥 this morning. Am enjoying your systematic logical deconstruction of gender arguments.

Edited to add: unfortunately it’s a lost cause against genderist thinking but I’m still enjoying reading your arguments.

And lots of trans people who are out of the closet don't express the gender stereotypes of the gender identity you think they ought to have.

Gender is a spectrum that isn't limited to 1950's pin up movie stars. Just like women & men, trans women & trans men express their identity on a spectrum.

No, that wasn't what I asked.

Yes you did. That's what triggered our whole mental illness discussion remember?

What I asked was, "Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?" You haven't answered that so far.

Because it exists.

Okay. Give us one such characteristic. Just one.

Already have presentation.

I don't have to prove that something that doesn't exist is unfalsifiable.

"Evidence of Absence: If you search an area thoroughly and find no evidence of something that should be there, you can conclude it likely doesn't exist. For example, if you thoroughly check a sealed, empty room, you can prove there is no adult elephant inside. 1, 2]"

You could eliminate reasons that prove that personality traits & beliefs influence gender identification….but you can't.

Not all trans people are out of the closet & as such don't express their gender identity.

And lots of trans people who are out of the closet don't express the gender stereotypes of the gender identity you think they ought to have.

Never said it did. What I said was it is evidence of it because you asked for how this could be done.

No, that wasn't what I asked. What I asked was, "Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?" You haven't answered that so far.