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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Push and pull factors in transitioning

313 replies

GCScot · 16/06/2026 09:32

People's motivations in making a change can be categorised into 'push' and 'pull' factors. 'Push' factors are your dissatisfaction with your current state. 'Pull' factors are the perceived advantages of another state.

I started thinking about the possible push and pull factors for people transitioning their gender. It made me realise that there are two distinct groups:

Group 1 = mainly motivated by push factors. i.e. they are unhappy with their sexed body. They include:

  • Women/girls with internalised misogyny
  • Gay people with internalised homophobia
  • Non-genderconforming autistic people who have internalised sexist stereotypes as fact
  • Survivors of abuse/trauma who are trying to protect themselves from future abuse/trauma

Group 2 = mainly motivated by pull factors. i.e. they are attracted to being/being perceived to be the opposite sex. They include:

  • People who are sexually aroused by the idea of themselves being the opposite sex (AGP/AAP)
  • People who think they can gain a personal advantage (sporting/competitive/sexual access) by claiming to be the opposite sex

Group 1 are mainly children and young adults, especially girls. They have gender dysphoria. Because they are trying to permanently and convincingly escape their sexed bodies, they are more likely to undergo medical modifications (surgery, artificial hormones). They have a diverse range of vulnerabilities as a result of their own personal life experiences and the prejudices of society

Group 2 are mainly adult men. We might say they have gender euphoria. Because they aren't trying to escape their sexed bodies they are unlikely to undergo medical modification, preferring temporary and superficial modifications such as clothes, make up, prosthetics, names and pronouns. The majority of the aggressive vocal TRAs come from this group

TRAs deliberately merge the two groups

They know they can utilise the sincerity, vulnerability and innocence of Group 1:
Trans appears in childhood - it must be innate!
Trans appears in childhood - it can't be sexually motivated!
Trans people have gender dysphoria - they're vulnerable!
Look at the lengths they'll go to (surgery, hormones) - they must be genuine!

But when it comes to the motivations of trans people, the TRAs suddenly switch track. They emphasise the pull factor acting on Group 2 ("wanting to be a wo/man") rather than the push factor acting on Group 1 (trying to escape your sexed body). Because any detailed discussion of just why someone might want to escape their body would raise awkward questions about whether wanting to transition is really a cause for celebration and affirmation.

I think it's very important we distinguish between the two groups when discussing objections to gender ideology. They are very different groups with different motivations and consequences. I think part of the reason so many trans allies are resistant to changing their opinions or even discussing the issue is because most of the trans people they know are Group 1s. They recognise these people's sincerity and vulnerability and have been duped by Group 2 TRAs into not examining the underlying push and pull factors of transition

OP posts:
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DeanElderberry · 19/06/2026 09:02

God be with the days when the only timewasting personality analysis we did was Myers-Briggs tests.

BeMoreBear · 19/06/2026 07:58

DeanElderberry · 19/06/2026 07:03

Human beings are 100% biological.

Unless you're not a robot, but a 100% not-robot-biological-woman, which, I think I remember correctly, means you are a biological FemaleNotRobot, or something.

How did we get into this stupid mess, and where did all these stupid people come from? (don't answer that!)

DeanElderberry · 19/06/2026 07:03

Human beings are 100% biological.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 18/06/2026 09:16

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 11:52

The Big 5 Personality Traits are estimated between 30 to 60% biological.

The Big 5 Personality Traits are estimated between 30 to 60% biological.

If a psychological trait is only 30-60% biological then it's not a biological psychological trait as by definition it's 40-70% non-biological.

Please can you provide a list of biological psychological traits along with a list of non-biological psychological traits?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 18/06/2026 09:09

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 11:57

That's as ignorant as saying Candace Owens can never be corrected on black issues or Phyllis Schlafly on women's issues by someone who isn't black or female.

Soooo lived experience!

That's as ignorant as saying Candace Owens can never be corrected on black issues or Phyllis Schlafly on women's issues by someone who isn't black or female.

Those are odd examples for someone who claims to be in Liverpool.

ByTheRiverside · 17/06/2026 21:35

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nutmeg7 · 17/06/2026 21:12

OldCrone · 17/06/2026 10:55

FINALLLLLY! That's why comments like 'I like dressing like a trucker so I must be a man HA HA! by GC's is dumb. Nobody is suggesting gender categories apply to individuals. But what trans people are saying is they at an individual level associate with the category. BIG DIFFERENCE.

So you're saying that we can't assume that a woman dressed like a trucker identifies as a transman because gender categories don't apply to individuals.

But when a transman dresses like a trucker, she is saying that at an individual level she associates with the category of men.

Observers, not being able to see inside her head , don't know whether or not she identifies as a transman.

So looking at men who are trying to look like women, we can't tell whether they identify as transwomen or are just plain old crossdressers. I think most of us knew that already, but thanks for confirming it from a male/TRA point of view.

Exactly. We are back to “being trans” not being externally verifiable, but only existing in someone’s head. Is this person a cross dresser, or are they magically “trans”? We can’t tell by observation.

So being trans is not externally or independently verifiable. Only down to the magic words that the person says.

Therefore we shouldn’t allow self ID into women’s spaces/services/associations.

nutmeg7 · 17/06/2026 20:51

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 00:13

MH symptoms are clearly defined.
"behaviours & inclinations similar to cis women/men on average" are not.

Are you suggesting you don't notice anything different in presentation between men & women on average that's clearly defined? C'mon. Be serious here.

And if they are, then I have a problem, because my hobbies are typically female, so I suppose I'm not really a transman?

No. Because identity is an individual subjective belief based on personal values.
It's upto an individual whether they identify more with their natal sex or gender similarities to the opposite sex. Just because gender categorisations exist doesn't mean an individual defines themselves by them just as they don't sex categorisations. Its upto them.

Then it’s not externally observable is it?

If someone can have “typically female “ interests but still be a trans man in your eyes, and as you say, it is all a matter for the individual to declare, then it is only inside the trans person’s head and not externally verifiable in any consistent way at all.

DrBlackbird · 17/06/2026 19:56

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 11:48

Making an association between yourself and someone/something else does not make you into that person or thing.

The same way a person possessing female reproductive biological traits is a cis woman a natal male possessing gendered inclinations of a cis female can be a trans woman. No one is suggesting gendered traits can make a natal male into a natal female.

This is exactly what I was saying earlier. That the young trans identifying people I know (and their allies) acknowledge men are males and don’t deny the material reality of sex, but they do believe in the primacy of this nebulous concept of gender over sex. Including believing that a female gender gives or ought to give permission to enter the single sex spaces of women. Because gender trumps sex.

ByTheRiverside · 17/06/2026 16:15

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/06/2026 16:08

'Cis' means nothing outside of transgender ideology. Biology is not a psychological trait is is a physical reality. Having what you call 'gendered inclinations' doesn't change your sex; and having what you call 'female gendered inclinations' does not make turn a man into a woman.

What you seem to be describing is performances of 'gender' - Judith Butler style.

He's got a real point, though.

When I go to sleep, my behaviour disappears. Then my husband has a right wobble and can't figure out what sex I am.

He shakes me awake and says "What sex are you?" and I respond "Hold on, I'll have a check in the wardrobe. Can you pass me my bra and knickers?"

Then we both remember that only women wear bras and knickers, and he settles down for a good snooze.

GCScot · 17/06/2026 16:14

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 11:57

That's as ignorant as saying Candace Owens can never be corrected on black issues or Phyllis Schlafly on women's issues by someone who isn't black or female.

Soooo lived experience!

Multiple TRAs do this all the time though, including on this thread

OP posts:
Shortshriftandlethal · 17/06/2026 16:08

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 11:48

Making an association between yourself and someone/something else does not make you into that person or thing.

The same way a person possessing female reproductive biological traits is a cis woman a natal male possessing gendered inclinations of a cis female can be a trans woman. No one is suggesting gendered traits can make a natal male into a natal female.

'Cis' means nothing outside of transgender ideology. Biology is not a psychological trait is is a physical reality. Having what you call 'gendered inclinations' doesn't change your sex; and having what you call 'female gendered inclinations' does not make turn a man into a woman.

What you seem to be describing is performances of 'gender' - Judith Butler style.

ByTheRiverside · 17/06/2026 15:46

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 03:10

Whatever he may have in common with women is because it's shared between the sexes to begin with. There is no one trait that TIMs have that differentiate them from males.

The one trait that distinguishes males from females is on average behaviours. That the sexes share behaviours doesn't change that.

TIMs do not respect this, because they do not share our experience of being treated this way, because they are male.

In fact trans women do share misogynistic treatment with women like street harassment, workplace discrimination and sexual objectification. They are more likely to be harassed than trans men for a reason.

If they truly understood women, then they would respect the boundary on our spaces. They would say "Although I feel myself to be a woman, I want women to feel safe, so I will not intrude." That would generally be the response of someone who's raised as a girl, who's been made to feel she should put everyone else's needs ahead of her own.

Not all women agree with not feeling safe as exemplified by the huge generational & cultural divide when it comes to single sex spaces. In many countries no such widespread concerns exist.

Instead, we get a narcissistic display of anger, and another "No. I'm coming in whether you like it or not, and if you don't get out of my way..." Which is exactly how someone raised as a boy would respond.

Women never say no, resist or rebel against injustice? 'Feminism' ring a bell?

See it's not even worth responding to your wider post because your position starts from a lie in the very beginning. That the difference between male and female is "behaviours".

The difference between male and female is sex.

We can't deconstruct the rest of what you wrote until somehow we get you to figure out that sex is a real thing.

Let's start with some basic test questions to help you along. Multi-choice:

Which sex menstruates?
(a) Male
(b) Female
(c) Both
(d) Sex is irrelevant, menstruation is a behaviour that some people choose to conform to

Let me know if you need any help.

Seethlaw · 17/06/2026 15:18

murasaki · 17/06/2026 14:17

Seethlaw (and correct me if I'm wrong!) has previously said that there are preferences, but that they won't be too aerated if people use other ones. However there's a difference between doing that and doing it specifically to be insulting, which is what you are doing, especially by saying 'the Seether'. It's deeply unpleasant behaviour.

That's right, I don't much care about what pronouns are used for me. And in this particular case, I'm quite amused by what the choice of pronouns and epithets to use for me reveals of the mentality and principles of this particular TRA.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/06/2026 14:28

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 11:48

Making an association between yourself and someone/something else does not make you into that person or thing.

The same way a person possessing female reproductive biological traits is a cis woman a natal male possessing gendered inclinations of a cis female can be a trans woman. No one is suggesting gendered traits can make a natal male into a natal female.

What you are calling 'gendered traits' comes across as not only prescriptive but actually quite regressive. Men do not become any kind of woman just because they like 'girly' things. Isn't that what people used to say to gay men " He's not a real man, he's a girly boy etc" Isn't this what the women's movement and the gay liberation movement sought to over come?

Women and girls have separate spaces/provisons in certain types of public situation not because of their personality preferences, but because of their biology/their female body. A male body, even with modifications, is not a female body, nor does it have female biology. Which is why a trans -identified man will never need to see a gynaecologist.

murasaki · 17/06/2026 14:17

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 14:05

You mean to say The Seether isn't a gender critical feminist & therefore actually believes in preferred pronouns now?

Make up your mind.

Seethlaw (and correct me if I'm wrong!) has previously said that there are preferences, but that they won't be too aerated if people use other ones. However there's a difference between doing that and doing it specifically to be insulting, which is what you are doing, especially by saying 'the Seether'. It's deeply unpleasant behaviour.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/06/2026 14:10

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Everton is a suburb of Liverpool. I always tend to associate 'Emily' with Joss Prior - who lives in the Everton/Kirkdale area of the city. I know he has two daughters.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/06/2026 14:05

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 11:19

I'm referring to biological psychological traits that exist on a spectrum.

We are all human beings regardless of whether we are male or female, and as such we all share in the full potential and possible range of human personality and character.

Just because a male person expresses or feels nurturing feelings ( associated with female people due to their role in pregnancy and childbirth/care) it doesn't make him a woman/a female person. And just because a female person may be interested in mechanics or in taking machines apart ( associated with men /coded as 'masculine') it doesn't make her a man/male person.

I really don't understand what it is you are struggling to understand here. It is not preferences or personality that make you male or female, a man or a woman - it is your biology and your chromosomal hard drive. Just because man can feel what may be regarded as 'feminine sentiments' it doesn't make him a woman.

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 14:05

GreyskySexRealistsky · 17/06/2026 12:27

"She"?

You mean to say The Seether isn't a gender critical feminist & therefore actually believes in preferred pronouns now?

Make up your mind.

GCScot · 17/06/2026 13:03

highame · 17/06/2026 06:42

Why isn't social contagion mentioned by the Op in group 1? It's been a major factor and acknowledged as such.

I agree social contagion is a major factor

I didn't include it because I was mainly thinking about why specific individuals are susceptible to identifying as trans, i.e. what the underlying psychology is of why some individuals are caught up in social contagion and others aren't

I guess some demographics are more susceptible to social contagion - teenage girls spring to mind. For a person affected by social contagion I guess the push is not wanting to be an outsider and the pull is social cachet

OP posts:
murasaki · 17/06/2026 12:46

Seethlaw · 17/06/2026 12:38

Good thing I'm not doing trans for anyone but me, then 😁

Definitely!

Seethlaw · 17/06/2026 12:38

murasaki · 17/06/2026 12:33

You're just not doing trans well enough for Emily!

Good thing I'm not doing trans for anyone but me, then 😁

murasaki · 17/06/2026 12:33

Seethlaw · 17/06/2026 12:15

And somewhat rude to Seethlaw.

I rather think that was the entire point 😂

You're just not doing trans well enough for Emily!

murasaki · 17/06/2026 12:32

GreyskySexRealistsky · 17/06/2026 12:27

"She"?

Indeed. You can't have it every which way, Emily.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 17/06/2026 12:27

EmilyinEverton · 17/06/2026 12:23

Yes yes she must be terribly offended by a difference of opinion as opposed to how trans people are routinely dehumanised & demonised by all her GC 'friends' on this platform.

The hypocrisy is shameless.

"She"?