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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Calling females with ambiguous appearance

95 replies

Brainworm · 13/06/2026 10:07

TRAs are expressing increasing levels of concern for females whose presentation is ambiguous in relation to their sex. They often cite women with allopecia, cancer survivors and butch lesbians.

I thought it might be productive if we collate some ‘lived experiences’ so we can provide constructive advice to those concerned.

I am 5 feet 11. I have very broad shoulders and short hair, but not balding. I am also a cancer survivor (mastectomy) and live in ‘gender neutral’ clothes. No jewellery, no make up, always trousers, always flat shoes (trainers).

Pre menopause there were occasions when people did a double take, especially in winter when wrapped up - I was very hour-glassy (not willowy), so not androgynous in that sense. Once or twice, over 30 odd years I had people say things like - gosh, you’re tall, which I sensed was communicating some concern. As soon as I spoke, all concern was lost - probably due to 2 things. My voice is clearly female, and the nature of my response was pleasant.

Post meno, my waist has thickened. My fat distribution is still female indicating but less so, so I am less obviously female than before. However, I haven’t been questioned or challenged more. If I was, I have no doubt the same would apply once I responded as outlined above.

So, my advice to females who have androgynous, ambiguous or male appearances (I’m excluding those who take exogenous hormones with the intention to pass as male) is to accept, as fact, that your appearance is one that could lead people to question your sex. If this is upsetting, try and work on self acceptance - we are a lot more than our outward appearance. If someone questions your sex within the context of single sex provision, see this as them looking out for you, just as much as more feminine looking women. Rest assured that if you speak, this alone is likely to dispel their fears.

Anyone else have any tips to share? It would be great if the TRAs didn’t have to worry about this group and could instead focus on finding solutions for trans people.

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JanesLittleGirl · 16/06/2026 21:30

Imdunfer · 16/06/2026 19:05

No I don't know that. I've been being misgendered by men and women since 1978

I cannot imagine your situation being 5'0" tall and a little over 7 stones. How do you manage it? It sounds like shit having to go through challenge after challenge.

Imdunfer · 16/06/2026 19:05

FrippEnos · 16/06/2026 18:16

I know that there are, and you know that there are.
And we both know that the misgendering of these women happens very infrequently possibly even rarely.

We also know that if it were not for the influx of trans women it wouldn't happen at all.

Trans people have created this and yet are trying to pass it off as someone else's fault.

No I don't know that. I've been being misgendered by men and women since 1978

FrippEnos · 16/06/2026 18:16

Imdunfer · 16/06/2026 17:30

There are plenty of women who know they are women and want to be women and do not desire to be mistaken for men who wear androgenous clothing and no makeup. Hi there 👋

Edited

I know that there are, and you know that there are.
And we both know that the misgendering of these women happens very infrequently possibly even rarely.

We also know that if it were not for the influx of trans women it wouldn't happen at all.

Trans people have created this and yet are trying to pass it off as someone else's fault.

Imdunfer · 16/06/2026 17:30

FrippEnos · 16/06/2026 14:03

Surely if as a woman you are, what is called "masculine presenting" and someone mistakes you for a man, then job done?

There are plenty of women who know they are women and want to be women and do not desire to be mistaken for men who wear androgenous clothing and no makeup. Hi there 👋

Snorlaxo · 16/06/2026 17:20

Are they showing concern for petite/androgenous men too?

FrippEnos · 16/06/2026 17:14

flyingbuttress43 · 16/06/2026 17:08

Sorry but I'm finding it hilarious that TRAs are coming over all faux worried about women who might be mistaken for men now that it suits them to show they are concerned. Funny that. How about showing some concern for the other 99 percent of the female population they don't give a shiny shit about?

That is one of the other grifts with the ECHR and saying that its bad for trans and women.

flyingbuttress43 · 16/06/2026 17:08

Sorry but I'm finding it hilarious that TRAs are coming over all faux worried about women who might be mistaken for men now that it suits them to show they are concerned. Funny that. How about showing some concern for the other 99 percent of the female population they don't give a shiny shit about?

FrippEnos · 16/06/2026 16:15

SomeGarlic · 16/06/2026 14:31

Yeah, no. They're not LARPing as men, they're wearing what they like.

Despite what current ideology may have made you think, there are no rules on what clothes & haircuts each sex can wear.

Yes, they are wearing what they like.

No idea why you think that the current ideology has made me think anything.
There shouldn't be any rules as to what peoplw wear but society says otherwise, its part of the reason why we are in this mess.

SomeGarlic · 16/06/2026 14:31

FrippEnos · 16/06/2026 14:03

Surely if as a woman you are, what is called "masculine presenting" and someone mistakes you for a man, then job done?

Yeah, no. They're not LARPing as men, they're wearing what they like.

Despite what current ideology may have made you think, there are no rules on what clothes & haircuts each sex can wear.

FrippEnos · 16/06/2026 14:03

Surely if as a woman you are, what is called "masculine presenting" and someone mistakes you for a man, then job done?

ChequerToRed · 16/06/2026 14:01

I’m 5.8’, a cancer survivor who lost both boobs due to finding out I’m a BRCA fault carrier. Medically induced menopause has made me a bit thick around the middle so I have the figure of Winnie the Pooh and I don’t wear foobs because I feel silly in them. I have my hair shortish because the cancer treatment killed off my thyroid and the synthetic thyroxine isn’t anywhere near as wonderful as it’s made out to be, so it went from thick and glossy to thin and shitty. I generally wear jeans, T-shirts and trainers.
It’s been nearly 7 years, nobody has yet mistaken me for a man, and if they did I’d probably just laugh. I’ve been through too much to care.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 16/06/2026 12:25

Choose your boo-words with care? To use "terf" here would be too much of a giveaway.

SomeGarlic · 16/06/2026 12:01

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 16/06/2026 11:47

I am in the "really?" camp on this as well. It seems vanishingly unlikely somehow that if a woman looks like a woman, she will be accused of being a man by other women. And as you say, "paranoid rad fems" is a strange phrase to use.

I wonder how 'she' knows they're rad fems 😂 Must be those gangs of masculine-presenting women AFABs in pink fist t-shirts that roam around everywhere, shouting radical feminist slogans like 'Women's Rights Are Human Rights'. You can barely move without bumping into them, can you?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 16/06/2026 11:58

It occurs to me, belatedly, that if remembranceofthingspast is a TiM, women observing him as being male in spite of slap and wig might make perfect sense. But I don't think that is the case, is it?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 16/06/2026 11:47

I am in the "really?" camp on this as well. It seems vanishingly unlikely somehow that if a woman looks like a woman, she will be accused of being a man by other women. And as you say, "paranoid rad fems" is a strange phrase to use.

MagpiePi · 16/06/2026 09:59

remembranceofthingspast · 15/06/2026 11:15

I get paranoid rad fems insisting I'm a man and having a go at my appearance. Supposed feminists.

I'm not even butch looking, quite the opposite.

It's put me off the whole movement.

Really?
Give us some specific examples of the circumstances and what was said.

Paranoid rad fems 🙄

anyolddinosaur · 15/06/2026 11:30

If this is such a common event I'd love to know why no-one has ever said this to me and it has never happened in my presence. Maybe I look so masculine that everyone is too scared to raise it with me 😂

SwirlyGates · 15/06/2026 11:16

SomeGarlic · 15/06/2026 07:49

That was my first thought - I've also replied that it's happened to me. But I do agree with her conclusion. These tales of distressed lesbians, usually with video interviews of them shaking & crying, have all struck me as more staged than Othello at the Globe.

Seems to me that it's trans people and their allies who do the shaking and crying (or claim to). The rest of us are somewhat more resilient to the ups and downs of daily life.

remembranceofthingspast · 15/06/2026 11:15

I get paranoid rad fems insisting I'm a man and having a go at my appearance. Supposed feminists.

I'm not even butch looking, quite the opposite.

It's put me off the whole movement.

SwirlyGates · 15/06/2026 11:10

DeanElderberry · 15/06/2026 09:14

Bottom line is that too many of them don't 'just wanna pee', they want access to a place with non-consenting women in uniquely vulnerable situations.

They can pee anywhere, including the men's loos, and do it far more quickly than women can.

If you were on a train you might have had cause to visit one of the few mixed-use loos we encounter regularly. Often a horrid reminder of many men's refusal to sit down and keep shared spaces clean.

Train loos - recently a guy came out of one that I was waiting for, and said, "Sorry," to me. I thought he meant, "Sorry for keeping you waiting," but no, the seat was covered in piss and he knew it. One day I'm going to lose my rag and chase one of these guys down the train to humiliate them for their disgusting behaviour.

DeanElderberry · 15/06/2026 09:14

RunningforSam · 15/06/2026 08:18

I guess TRAs might point out that regardless of whether you find the questioning upsetting or not, you ‘just wanna pee’ and should be able to go about this without challenge.

I was on the train yesterday, just wanting to listen to my podcast, and a ticket inspector came and required me to show him my ticket.

My son bought me an amazing kitchen knife for my birthday. When he bought it, there was a hoo- ha at John Lewis because he didn’t have his ID with him. He just wanted to shop.

There are all kinds of interruptions to ‘just getting on’ with activities of daily living.

Many grips need to be gotten, both with coping with someone not correctly sexing you and with people checking you are in the right place

Bottom line is that too many of them don't 'just wanna pee', they want access to a place with non-consenting women in uniquely vulnerable situations.

They can pee anywhere, including the men's loos, and do it far more quickly than women can.

If you were on a train you might have had cause to visit one of the few mixed-use loos we encounter regularly. Often a horrid reminder of many men's refusal to sit down and keep shared spaces clean.

Imdunfer · 15/06/2026 08:43

RunningforSam · 15/06/2026 08:18

I guess TRAs might point out that regardless of whether you find the questioning upsetting or not, you ‘just wanna pee’ and should be able to go about this without challenge.

I was on the train yesterday, just wanting to listen to my podcast, and a ticket inspector came and required me to show him my ticket.

My son bought me an amazing kitchen knife for my birthday. When he bought it, there was a hoo- ha at John Lewis because he didn’t have his ID with him. He just wanted to shop.

There are all kinds of interruptions to ‘just getting on’ with activities of daily living.

Many grips need to be gotten, both with coping with someone not correctly sexing you and with people checking you are in the right place

This, and it's not until the trans people told me that I was supposed to be getting upset about it that it even crossed my mind I might get upset about it. I usually just find it funny, though recently, thanks to the trans people, I've had to be concerned about the women who are looking for reassurance that I'm not a man. Thanks again guys.

Brainworm · 15/06/2026 08:41

CoverLikelyZebra · 15/06/2026 08:28

Yes I'm a cancer survivor with short hair, a relatively deep voice (I sing tenor as Alto is too high for me) and gender-neutral/masc presentation, never wear makeup, and I own precisely zero skirts/dresses though my fat distribution is clearly female-phenotype if I'm wearing clothes that allow that level of shape detail to be scrutinised. I don't mind being mistaken for male at all. There's a bit in one of Hannah Gadsby's shows about it - getting mistaken for male feels like a "holiday" from the misogyny women face daily - for a few seconds you are a straight white man, "top-shelf normal", "king of the humans". It never lasts for more than 3 seconds because people aren't that stupid, and the things that can cause the misperception are too peripheral to really fool anyone. In the event of getting challenged in a ladies loo it would take approximately 2.5 seconds for the challenger to look again, realise they were wrong and we'd all laugh good-naturedly about it. No one is criticising me or any other gender-neutral-presenting woman of being insufficiently feminine or policing loos to only let in properly feminine women. The only criterion is being female.

XY males can't bluff their way into female spaces by pretending to be transmen on testosterone. Adams Apple and Pelvis shape are the main giveaways but a female person with a beard still looks like a female person with a beard, not a male person, if you look properly after the first glance.

👏👏👏

OP posts:
Imdunfer · 15/06/2026 08:34

OldCrone · 15/06/2026 08:14

The point is that this only happens now because so many men have been insisting they're women and invading women's spaces.

The TRA line is that this is our fault for wanting our own spaces and not accepting men who claim to be women as real women and welcoming them into our spaces.

It's not our fault. It's those men's fault. If we could trust them to stay out we wouldn't need to be so vigilant and suspicious of everyone, some of whom turn out to be actual women.

It's been happening to me since I became an adult. My first firm memory is hearing the little boy in the garden next door saying "who's that man, mummy?", around about the time a woman in the loos told me I was in the wrong one in Slough shopping centre. Both 48 years ago.

I've lost count of the number of service people who have called me sir or mate. Last happened a few months ago on a bus. I prefer it to "love" !

CoverLikelyZebra · 15/06/2026 08:28

Yes I'm a cancer survivor with short hair, a relatively deep voice (I sing tenor as Alto is too high for me) and gender-neutral/masc presentation, never wear makeup, and I own precisely zero skirts/dresses though my fat distribution is clearly female-phenotype if I'm wearing clothes that allow that level of shape detail to be scrutinised. I don't mind being mistaken for male at all. There's a bit in one of Hannah Gadsby's shows about it - getting mistaken for male feels like a "holiday" from the misogyny women face daily - for a few seconds you are a straight white man, "top-shelf normal", "king of the humans". It never lasts for more than 3 seconds because people aren't that stupid, and the things that can cause the misperception are too peripheral to really fool anyone. In the event of getting challenged in a ladies loo it would take approximately 2.5 seconds for the challenger to look again, realise they were wrong and we'd all laugh good-naturedly about it. No one is criticising me or any other gender-neutral-presenting woman of being insufficiently feminine or policing loos to only let in properly feminine women. The only criterion is being female.

XY males can't bluff their way into female spaces by pretending to be transmen on testosterone. Adams Apple and Pelvis shape are the main giveaways but a female person with a beard still looks like a female person with a beard, not a male person, if you look properly after the first glance.

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