How to respond he/she?

Some trans people go to doctors for a diagnosis so that they can be referred to specialist gender clinics for treatment. If they're not sick, why do they do this and why are there specialist clinics for people who are not sick?

Gender dysphoria is a distess condition related to being trans but not always. It is not the cause of them being trans

Some male trans people are autogynephiles.

As are some cis people but that doesn't make all cis people AG.

So I think that leaves us with the chancers (prison onset gender dysphoria), crossdressers and teenagers swept up in a social contagion.

ROGD (social contagion) is an unproven theory. Cross-dressers are not trans.

I do know, that doesn't mean I can't disagree with you on this. I see the point you are making, I simply think it's too niche in the overall scheme of things to make any difference to the conclusions being drawn, but work away.

I never said it did.
Perhaps you haven't realised, but I'm firmly on the 'call a man a man' side of this argument. I was just making a small side point, out of interest, about language and how it is possible (not usual, not broad social convention, just possible) for pronouns to be gendered and not only ever sexed.
I kind of regret it now.
<<tired>>

Ultimately I don't think it changes the fact that the social convention is to use pronouns based on sex.

Sure. But I didn't say it applied to everyone. The salient phrase is 'can be'.

Alexander and Alex are both the truth in this example. One is just a shortened version of his name, not a wrong version.

They're super specific and only within an 'in' group. 99% of people would be calling these men 'he'

And I should also say that, in the normal run of things, of course it's fine and not abusive to say 'he' when referring to a man, even if he says he's a woman.

I'd argue that they can be both. Gay men calling each other 'she' or saying e.g. 'Ooh, get her!' is clearly 'wrong' if we're talking about sex, but it is deliberately applying the wrong-sex pronoun to make a point, and is gendered.
NB yes I do realise these are somewhat old-fashioned and maybe reductive examples, but I don't think they're totally untrue.

If trans people aren't sick why are we supposed to treat them as if they will collapse into a jibbering wreck due to their mental health if we don't?

You can't have it both ways.

Trans people aren't 'sick'.

Some trans people go to doctors for a diagnosis so that they can be referred to specialist gender clinics for treatment. If they're not sick, why do they do this and why are there specialist clinics for people who are not sick?

Some male trans people are autogynephiles. This is a different kind of 'sick'.

So I think that leaves us with the chancers (prison onset gender dysphoria), crossdressers and teenagers swept up in a social contagion.

Honestly, why should we pander to the unreasonable wishes of any of these people?

I saw a bloke parading up and down around a children’s science festival the other day in a bright pink tube dress, pink heeled boots, pink Stetson. Full beard and Adam’s apple. Just flouncing around amongst all the croc-wearing millennial hipsters and their kids. Weird. No amount of ‘politeness’ could compel me to think of him as a ‘she’. He was clearly a young man with issues.

So why is it ‘abusive’ to call somebody the pronoun that our life experience best tells us match these people, and yet it’s not abusive to compel rest of the world to bend to your will? Again, weird.

There's no such thing as misgendering. There is wrong sexing. This is not helpful to women.

Why are the only ones that matter trans people?

I'm sorry but we should be free to use the language that we feel is appropriate without vilification because it matters.

There isn't a hierarchy here.

Trans people aren't 'sick'.

If trans people aren't sick why do they demand medicines & surgery?

Exactly. It's impolite of a man to a whole bunch of women to demand that they call him a woman.

Look I appreciate politeness can go too far by entrenching harmful behaviours but that depends on the circumstances. Trans people aren't 'sick'. Do you honestly believe that misgendering trans people will 'help them see the light'?

Where's the utility here?

His name. A man with fake boobs, wearing a dress, is still a man.

@Manchesteruser In situations like this I use their name and they/them, because I refuse to pretend a he is a she.

I keep saying this but where did the idea come from that lying to people about how you perceive their sex is 'polite'?

Its the exact opposite

No because the second you indicate in your language that being a woman is anything other than biological reality, you make it much harder for women to fight for their rights to single sex spaces. It always shocks me that people who are GC don't understand this.

If you're prepared to call a person 'she' how do you make the argument that no, 'she' shouldn't use women's spaces?

And to be honest, I think that's also unfair on the trans identifying man in question. Playing along with them part of the way, but then withdrawing is sending very mixed messages. Much better to be firm and clear from the get go.

'Basic politeness'.

There's a whole film on the dangers of this and not challenging when appropriate because we should maintain this insane middle class British idea of politeness.

It's called "Hot Fuzz".

I recommend it.

And yes I am being straight up deadly serious in saying it's a real world warning about why this pattern of behaviour is not healthy.

Can you really not see how coercively controlling how someone else speaks is a form of abuse?

So an expectation of a reciprocal social convention is coercive control now?
Can you really not see how ludicrously hyperbolic this is?

Now I can understand a concern about competing rights but the mean spirited nastiness over basic politeness really does betray this as garden variety bigotry.

You would have us all walking on eggshells, worrying about our language in case it 'invalidates' someone's someone's self-declared 'identity' which bears no resemblance to reality.

Oh the injustice & mortification of reciprocating preferred pronouns!!!! Just who the hell do you think you are? The pretentiousness is breathtaking. You'd think we were still in the days of the aristocracy ruling with this sort of classist snobbery.

Should we also validate the identity of the unwell man who insists he's Napoleon?

Of all the dim witted GC talking points this one takes the cake & regardless of how many times its patiently explained that the legitimacy is in the association it always falls on deaf ears.

Being forced into a situation where our speech is compelled to deny reality can make people anxious and negatively impact their ability to engage in workplaces and daily life.

Perhaps it might help if you accepted your subjective opinion doesn't necessarily qualify as "reality".

‘You don’t have to support what they believe in’- but that’s exactly what you’re doing if you use wrong sex pronouns on their say so.

As for getting drunk like a ‘normal person’… Lots of ‘normal’ people don’t drink alcohol (or do drink alcohol but don’t get drunk). It’s not abnormal to avoid alcohol- you sound rather judgemental.

You are framing yourself as GC and yet you don't seem to understand why so many GC people don't regard this as nice nor respectful and actively think it's harmful to themselves and to the person themselves.

Perhaps you would like to read these posts, quote them and explain why your position is different because you just look like another scoldy plopper who doesn't actually have much of a clue other than screaming 'be kind' at everyone.

Saying you are GC doesn't change this optic.

Seriously..are you that transphobic/petty/mean that you can’t just suck it up and use ‘she’ if that’s what he prefers? I mean, you said he’s very nice. You’re on a night out. Why not have fun and get drunk like a normal person rather than trying to be difficult? No offence, but you sound like a right party pooper. And this is coming from a GC person who doesn’t believe people can change sex. However, if someone’s nice to me, I’ll be nice to them and I will respect them by calling them by whatever they want to be called. It’s not that hard. One guy wanting to be called she is not some big disrespectful campaign against all women kind. You need to chill. If he introduced himself as Alex and everyone called him that and others told you that’s what he liked to be called, but you caught a glimpse of his driving licence and saw it said ‘Alexander’, would you suddenly start calling him Alexander, and refuse to call him Alex, just cos ‘that’s the truth’? Of course not cos you’d look like a total bellend. I think calling him ‘he’ may make you look an even bigger bellend. Trans people aren’t going anywhere, you don’t have to support what they believe in, you can be protective of the rights of women & girls, and still be respectful and treat them like human beings

1. even if detransition is uncommon it should be taken seriously because even 1 in 100 represents a failure rate which could be better safeguarded against. We do this for every other medical condition
2. at this stage I doubt we are seeing the true extent of the desire to detransition due to the age of the cohort most affected.
3. it seems the whole movement has uncanny parallels with cult like behaviour. If this is true, it would not be out of keeping with that for there to be a long period of investment in the movement before detransition. We are talking easily upwards of ten years in many cases.
4. we have numerous examples of how 'we shouldn't take this seriously because it's just some bots / idiots on Reddit talking shit' is a pattern of denial. As a rule I've always found quite the opposite. They are representative of something tangible - even if it's something we don't like to hear about and is inconvenient to our own beliefs. Over the years I've learnt the internet has this weird effect where many people are too afraid/ polite to say what they really feel because they don't want to isolate themselves or be piled on. I try now to hold to the courage of my convictions where I can in the knowledge that experience has taught me, when you open up the conversation others generally will eventually follow you if what you are saying holds an intrinsic truth even if you are swimming against the tide. I've learnt to try and recognise the pattern of intrinsic and unavoidable truth. I call it the 'wall of reality' and it's an inescapable force - like a black hole you gradually get sucked into it, if the truth is strong enough. Detransition firmly falls into this camp because you can't run away from your own sex forever.
5. saying that acknowledging the experiences of detransitioners is 'using it as a weapon against trans people' is coercive and abusive because of the avoidance of this wall of reality. Everything does not revolve around the denial of reality.
6. I have an actual degree which involved identifying propaganda and political manipulation as a key part of its core course. I've talked at length about this on numerous subjects not just the trans one. To what level are you educated in this field!?