How to respond he/she?

Oh dear. So very dramatic.

I'm taking about something you clearly haven't experienced: gender dysphoria.

I have. Still do.

Going through the wrong puberty

There's no such thing as a "wrong" puberty, because there's no such thing as a "right" puberty. There's only puberty. Children on hormones don't go through the other sex's puberty. Girls don't grow balls and a penis. Boys don't grow a vagina and a uterus. They all go through the one and only puberty they can go through: their own sex's, just a distorted version of it.

It is immeasurably cruel to deny these kids the appropriate counselling to help them cope with this

Actually, I agree, but only because the "appropriate counselling" is the one that tells them that this is the one and only body they have, and that changing sex is impossible. Telling them that if they take immensely dangerous drugs, they will be the other sex, is indeed "immeasurably cruel".

Puberty blockers have been used by cis children for a long time (they still are) to prevent early puberty.

Yes, with horrible medical side-effects. Funny how TRAs never mention those side-effects when advocating giving them to "trans kids".

A very small number of trans children are suitable for them, and have been helped by them.

Please cite your source for this claim, because so far all studies I'm aware of have shown the contrary.

Deterioration of mental health. There is widespread depression, anxiety, use of prescription medications, distress, school refusal, self-harm, hospitalisations and suicides among trans children.

True but correlation isn't causation. Please cite your source showing that all those things are caused by the gender dysphoria. Because the way I see it, for most current-day "trans kids", the gender dysphoria is simply another symptom of an underlying distress, and will disappear when that distress is treated.

The demonisation of trans children, who are seen as deserving violence (especially sexual violence) at school. Statistics show all trans children are targeted within schools and suffer greatly - many just leave without doing exams, because it's so awful.

Statistics, heh? Got some handy to prove this claim?

Far more adult surgeries. Forcing trans boys to develop breasts they don't want, just means they'll have top surgery later. It also forces them to wear binders.

I don't think you understand how this works. Little girls using puberty blockers don't develop breasts as long as they take the puberty blockers. Once they stop taking them, their puberty resumes, and those breasts develop, whether they take testosterone or not. So if they do indeed grow to not want those breasts later on (which is a massive "if"), they will have to have the surgery, even if they've been drugged up since they were 8.

Yes, some trans kids change their minds - but most of that's because of the.immense social pressure and ceaseless harassment trans people face.

Funny: that's not what they themselves say. I don't think the woman who sued the surgeon who operated on her did it because of social pressure and harrassment. She specifically did it because she had never been able to properly consent to having her breasts removed, and she's now distressed by the lack of them for the rest of her life.

Trans adult surgeries have a very low regret rate,

You don't know that. Nobody knows that, because there's no study whatsoever on the matter.

and many trans men have babies.

See what I told you about there being only one puberty anyone can go through? You can put a little girl on puberty blockers and then on testosterone, and she'll still go through some mangled version of the female puberty, because that's the only one she can go through.

All the young trans adults I know have been through things no child should - denial of care, violence, harassment and (in all cases bar two, one of them my own son) getting kicked out by their families. They are picking up the pieces of their lives, starting again, forming relationships and getting jobs. Many have PTSD after their experiences. It has stopped precisely none of them being trans.

You're making it sound like they went through those horrible things because they are trans. Let me posit another theory: they went through those horrible things because many things in their lives were wrong, and the distress made them believe they were trans. Ie. trans is a consequence of the root of their problem, not the cause. And you can't prove me wrong.

Breaking children at a young age is inexcusable.

AGREED! No child should be told that their body is wrong. No child should be told that they have to submit to medical procedures in order to make their body right. No child should be lied to that their body can become anything other than what it will inevitably become. No child should be given medical treatments with incredibly heavy, even life-shortening consequences, for false reasons. It is indeed inexcusable.

I hope terfs know that all their campaigning has led to this: young trans men now contemplating the quickest, cheapest way to get surgery they wouldn't otherwise have needed.

Oh no no no. The only ones responsible for that are the TRAs who tell these young women that their happiness depends on cutting their breasts off, and who campaign to prevent anyone from giving proper psychological support to these young women so they can reconcile themselves with their only, healthy body.

No one would be trans unless it meant everything to them. Their lives are too hard.

"No one would be depressed unless it meant everything to them."
"No one would be anorexic unless it meant everything to them."
"No one would be autistic unless it meant everything to them."
"No one would be disabled unless it meant everything to them."
See how stupid that sounds? Just because something is hard, doesn't mean it must be automatically supported and encouraged.

Harassment, violence - not to mention online forums dedicated to discussing their bodies, lives and appearance. Formulating paranoid conspiracy theories about them. Declaring them evil fetishists. Could you cope with that?

Then... Don't make them go through it? Give them proper psychological help so they learn to accept the one and only body they will ever have? Problem solved!

Have you experienced gender dysphoria?

“Puberty blockers have been used by cis children for a long time (they still are) to prevent early puberty.”

It is because of the treatment of girls with Lupron for precocious puberty that we know the long term life limiting and potentially shortening health issues of using these drugs. And now the prescription of them for that purpose is rare.

When they are prescribed for precocious puberty they are prescribed for a short time and then puberty resumes and continues to completion. In the case of being used for gender identity purposes, the drugs are used for a longer period of time and then the body’s normal puberty is prevented permanently causing other health issues in later life.

The negative health impacts of using puberty blockers for this particular purpose is why the usage has been scrutinised around the world and subject to bans. The lifelong negative health impacts that develop in the decades after use are known because of the treatment of the girls with precocious puberty.

I think people are at great risk here of spreading harmful misinformation if they cannot also acknowledge the life limiting and potentially life shortening side effects of these drugs, especially on female people.

Thank you transparent, for illustrating my point perfectly about propaganda versus material reality.

There's no such thing as 'the wrong puberty'. There's either puberty or blocking puberty through drugs.

I have felt it and experienced a great desire to be the opposite sex. I've said this before.

That's part of my problem.

You still can't change sex though. Pretending you can and telling everyone that they have to play make believe to remedy this, doesn't change this reality.

It doesn't mean your bollocks magically fall off if you are male. It doesn't mean you grow a dick if you are female.

It is a Big Lie to suggest different.

I'm taking about something you clearly haven't experienced: gender dysphoria.

Trans children are born, not made. Going through the wrong puberty is deeply distressing for them, because the outer body doesn't match how they know themselves to be.

It is immeasurably cruel to deny these kids the appropriate counselling to help them cope with this - and, further down the line, treatment which will give them time to mature and make decisions later.

Puberty blockers have been used by cis children for a long time (they still are) to prevent early puberty. A very small number of trans children are suitable for them, and have been helped by them.

Campaigning against help for trans children has had three effects:

1. Deterioration of mental health. There is widespread depression, anxiety, use of prescription medications, distress, school refusal, self-harm, hospitalisations and suicides among trans children.

1. The demonisation of trans children, who are seen as deserving violence (especially sexual violence) at school. Statistics show all trans children are targeted within schools and suffer greatly - many just leave without doing exams, because it's so awful.

1. Far more adult surgeries. Forcing trans boys to develop breasts they don't want, just means they'll have top surgery later. It also forces them to wear binders.

None of these effects have helped trans children.

Yes, some trans kids change their minds - but most of that's because of the.immense social pressure and ceaseless harassment trans people face. And the vast majority of them have changed little more than a haircut.

Trans adult surgeries have a very low regret rate, and many trans men have babies.

All the young trans adults I know have been through things no child should - denial of care, violence, harassment and (in all cases bar two, one of them my own son) getting kicked out by their families. They are picking up the pieces of their lives, starting again, forming relationships and getting jobs. Many have PTSD after their experiences. It has stopped precisely none of them being trans.

Breaking children at a young age is inexcusable. There is not even appropriate counselling for them if they can't afford to go private (true in most cases).

I hope terfs know that all their campaigning has led to this: young trans men now contemplating the quickest, cheapest way to get surgery they wouldn't otherwise have needed.

No one would be trans unless it meant everything to them. Their lives are too hard. Harassment, violence - not to mention online forums dedicated to discussing their bodies, lives and appearance. Formulating paranoid conspiracy theories about them. Declaring them evil fetishists. Could you cope with that?

Would we say that saying people who think the world is round who say you either agree or you are a nutty conspiracy theorist are using black and white fallacy?!

Think about this.

It can only be a fallacy if it's a falsehood.

The thing is though, if you can't change sex, which you can't how can it be a black and white fallacy to say you can't change sex?

If then it's not a fallacy then yes it is a case of saying either you are talking bollocks or you aren't. This isn't difficult.

I do think the GC side has used propaganda techniques at times. But on this particular point there there's a fundamental problem.

It's not a point that is contentious. Anyone who makes this point contentious can only do so through propaganda and misinformation.

That's the entire issue. It's a Big Lie.

Forcing children through the wrong puberty

What are you talking about? There is only one puberty any particular child can go through, and it is an essential part of becoming a healthy adult. It's normal for puberty to be a confusing, difficult, even distressing time, and it is good parenting to be aware of this and support and guide a child through it.

It is a child's birthright to reach the adulthood, and maybe parenthood, they were destined for, and I do not believe that adolescent distress is a good reason to sell that birthright for a "mess of potage" (as Esau did because he was hungry). Resolving distress through physical means such as surgery is no preparation for dealing with the almost inevitable distress of later life, such as relationship break up, bereavement, and the distress suffered by many in extreme old age. And a trans life is almost always a complicated life trying to deal with people who do not understand.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

Most trans children become trans adults and stay that way.

We don't know that. Nobody knows that. That's the entire problem: we don't know what becomes of those children whose bodies have been horrifyingly mistreated when they were too young to realise what was happening. We don't know how many of them are happy with what was done to them, how many are distressed over it, or how many committed suicide because of it. We don't know. And that's a huge fucking problem.

Question is why so many adults find it such a fascinating subject. It's really not normal to read obsessively about and discuss children's bodies.

Pediatricians will be happy to learn that you think they are all pedophiles.

Question is why so many adults find it such a fascinating subject. It's really not normal to read obsessively about and discuss children's bodies.

Who is going to safeguard children if not adults?

Are you aware how long it takes to access gender-affirming care on the NHS? It's 10-20 years. And that's for initial consultations and counselling.

Most children referred within the past 7 years will not see anyone until, at earliest, their late 20s.

Surgery for under-18s is banned in most countries.

Most trans children become trans adults and stay that way. Puberty blockers help prevent brutal surgeries later on, and give children time to grow up and be sure about next steps.

Forcing children through the wrong puberty when they know it could be prevented causes immense harm, suicidal udwation, exam failure - all while they're coping with horrendous, often sexual, violence at school. Denying kids like that specialised counselling is destroying lives.

No one would go through the intense harassment and violence involved in being a trans child if it didn't mean everything to them.

Most detransitioners support trans people.

A lot of online detrans people have had no medical intervention at all.

Question is why so many adults find it such a fascinating subject. It's really not normal to read obsessively about and discuss children's bodies.

I’m as rabidly GC as they come in fact I’d go as far as to say I’m anti-trans but I still wouldn’t try to compel someone’s speech on this topic. By the same token I wouldn’t expect them to compel mine. I’d think less of them though.

You either a trans ally or a far right supporter (Black-and-white fallacy / guilt by association)

To be a I've seen a lot of that type of thinking on here too. You are either gender critical or you are a handmaiden / too thick to understand the issue.

Absolutely. This is fundamental

If TRAs were anything close to honest, the very first thing they would tell anyone who wonders whether they might be trans is, "You do realise you can't change sex, right? You can make modifications to your body - some superficial, some enormous - but you will always be the sex you were born."

As long as they don't do that, they can't claim to have the well-being (physical as well as mental/emotional) of trans people in mind.

I’m glad you’re hearing detransitioners- are you also listening though? Are you understanding what they are saying about the pressures they were under, and the ease and speed with which some of them were progressed onto medical pathways without sufficient counselling and therapy?

This is a great post. I'd love to hear @TransParentlyAnnoyedresponse to it.

At the heart of this issue is this. There are gender non confirming children. There are also a much smaller number who are genuinely uncomfortable with their sex organs (ie dismorphia). These children all deserve love and support to become comfortable in their bodies and live their their lives to the full.

The big mistake was the idea that these children are somehow the opposite sex and that it's possible to change sex or 'live as' another sex and these problems would go away.

This is an egregious lie, started by a small coterie of people who know exactly what are doing and spread by many more who don't have a clue. It is wrong and deeply damaging, both for the children affected and society as a whole.

We need to go back to supporting these children through their distress while remaining firm that their sex can never change and sex specific boundaries remain intact.

You can keep telling yourself that being 'trans' is a fixed state of being all you want but all the evidence points to it being a mental disorder and social contagion which has had an especially dramatic affect on girls over the last 15 years. In the 80s - which you remember - there was no-one at your school who was trans. There were goths and other youth subcultures but no-one was giving the kids hormone blockers because of the ideas they had in their rapidly changing brains. I'm glad you are supportive of your child who clearly has issues around their birth sex but please have an off-ramp and a way they can change their mind. Because detransitioners exist and many girls end up regretting the hormonal and surgical changes they made to their bodies while believing they couldn't possibly live as a woman.

In that case, since everyone deserves to be heard, can we revisit to what level you have been educated in propaganda because you went very quiet after that part of the conversation.

You said we should educate ourselves on propaganda. My degree included studying political propaganda. I have observed that the problem here is with TRAs to a fairly unparalleled extent.

The whole idea you can change sex is a form of 'Big Lie' propaganda. You can't. Unfortunately.

The unsubstantiated claims of 'if you don't do this, you'll damage the mental health of transpeople and make them kill themselves' (Appeal to Fear propaganda)

If you don't go along with it, you are on the wrong side of history (Bandwagon propaganda)

TWAW (thought terminating cliche and Ad nauseam techniques)

You either a trans ally or a far right supporter (Black-and-white fallacy / guilt by association)

Don't get me started on the cognitive dissonance and cherry picking where transpeople are absolutely the same sex as they claim until they want to claim their trans status...

The level of disinformation we've had to wade through and have successfully disproven is special.

Exaggeration or hyperbole (genocide anyone?)

Flag waving (think this one is fairly self explanatory. We dont see many women's rights flags on public buildings)

Framing - JKR Rowling is anti-trans rather than pro-wonens rights thank you BBC.

Gaslighting. There's entire books on this one. No men are still unable to ever become women or be female.

I could go on about gish-gallop, milieu control, oversimplification etc etc.

And whilst yes, there has been the use of some propaganda in response to this shite from the GC side it has not been on anywhere near the same scale and it doesn't rely on propaganda to hold the entire façade up. Why?

Because ultimately the truth remains that you can't change sex, no matter how much you want or how much you do.

So yes, would you care to state your level of education in this area since we have so far had tumbleweeds on this matter. Id like to discuss this point further.

One person, whose voice deserves to be heard. Because all detrans people.deserve love, care and support.

As do all the trans people whoee testimony you've chosen to ignore.

The constant use of cis is really getting on my nerves. It's not needed
Extra annoyance points for the use of 'Cis gender'
And what's this 'women engaging in AGP? Not possible is it?

Cis gender

Is this some new nonsense that you have invented?

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I had heard of someone seeking a GRC that a specialist said they had "incongruence" but promised to write a support letter. Maybe the specialist treats the two as equivalent and used the legal wording "dysphoria" when it came to writing the letter.

There must surely be TRAs doing adult gender in the NHS. And if what I heard is true then I can see how one thing leads to another.... you have incongruence, I'll bend the rules a bit and say you have dysphoria so you can get a GRC.... then a few years down the line there you are on the waiting list for surgery, must be what you really want because you have a GRC.... and all that time no-one has wondered whether there could be a less dangerous way to mitigate the incongruence.

Perhaps I am too cynical or perhaps adult gender transition will become another medical scandal.

But anyway, the idea that "trans people" don't all have "dysphoria" seems to make the whole transition business - social, medical or legal - thoroughly pointless. If it's not that big a deal then why all the effort?