If changing sex became easy, should society allow it?

If Wishes were Fishes…

Not all hypothetical questions serve any useful purpose. Here’s a nice song.

This is my problem with the idea. And I've come to the conclusion that because you can't change your earlier experiences, then you still shouldn't be allowed on female only shortlists or in female sport.

You may as well have a poll called 'If you could change into a horse, should it be allowed'

It is impossible to change sex or to change into a horse.

This is like asking me should society allow it if it became easy for us to become cartoon characters instead of live humans, or if it became easy for us to change into birds.

But ok, sure, if somehow it became possible then my answer would be the same as the ones in the cosmetic surgery threads. Legal, but not funded by the NHS or equivalent, and you have to pay for insurance that would cover any related care you would need afterwards. You cannot expect others to fund your magical change, any complications that arise, or any health needs that occur because of it.

I think you have to imagine something like shape shifting/regeneration.

A bit like being able to turn into a bat if you are a vampire.

Without the experience of being a girl and young woman, how can an adult man 'become' a woman? His experiences, memories and attitudes will still be male.

We can 'allow' or 'forbid' a legal definition or a fiction.

Our allowing or forbidding has no impact on material reality, which just is.

If it were possible it wouldn't be a case of it being allowed.

Because the man would have become a woman.

Its just a nonsense question (no offense OP).

A similar one would be 'if I could age backwards should I be allowed in school').

If it were possible, and a man genuinely wanted to go through periods, menopause, the possibility of pregnancy etc. then why not? I doubt many actually would. It's one thing to look like a woman, another actually to be one with all the pain and misery it entails.

Or changing already fully developed and differentiated existing tissues and organs.

Yes, I’d skipped over that bit, the implication that it is possible today but takes some serious effort.

If people could actually change their biological sex then yes, they absolutely should be allowed to.

Changing biological sex would mean changing at a genetic level - xy to xx and vv, changing hormones - actual hormone production, not a lifetime of pills, changing reproductive system, changing body proportions and muscle strength, height, feet and hands etc.

Actually changing biological sex with all that means. The full removal of any and all advantage of the previous sex? If thry wanted to do that, I wouldn't care.

Why would you not allow it in a non-authoritarian society? It is surely a personal choice that has little impact on anyone else.

It's a question of whether the threshold for new hormones and body modification technology becomes more ubiquitous and within reach privately.

However, that is not changing sex.

Typically and contrary to intuition, it is the poorer countries that people flood to get such treatments and where access for such treatments is more affordable and the threshold lower.

It doesn't follow that all people in poor countries have access to healthcare.

In your scenario sex still has material consequences and any cosmetic changes are limited to those who can afford it.

Two obvious lines in the sand:

• Not on the NHS / at public expense.

• No breaks in the ID audit trail. Original birth certificate does not change. DBS checks see all records, etc. And no secrecy.

I don't think that would result in you growing new organs though?

Good grief the hostility!

If you don't want to discuss it don't open the thread.

If you are unable to conceptualise the gene editing techniques which are currently being used to restore sight to blind people being able to implant or remove a Y chromosome then this thread isn't for you.

Great theoretical question OP.

I'm going to have to have a really hard think before I can answer, though!

It'd be funny seeing a man cope with transitioning in his 50s straight into menopause.

It isn't possible unless someone develops a magic wand. So it's really not worth worrying about.

If it was an easy process to "change sex" as you describe it, who do you think these pretransition "transgender" people would be? Would they even exist in a society where sex change would be so readily available, painless and presumably easily reversible too? And how would these people be different to many other people who would choose to easily "change sex" for a miraid of reasons.

for example, Women being able to painlessly opt out of the male gaze, all the ways we are targeted & our bodies exploited, our sexual oppressions etc, to be able to say no to all of that will be an attractive option to many. I think lots of different women would take up an easy painless and meaningful way to change sex.

It would be very attractive option for many criminals, people wanting to "get lost/start over", would be useful for those in witness protection schemes, etc.

It would make actual identiy proofs & other facts potentailly impossible to nail down - the world would become quite anarchic if humans really could easily, painlessly & actually change sex.

But we aren't ghost in meatsuit machines.
Sex is immutable and meaningful in life & law.
Medical mutilisation of young peoples bodies is in full swing, causes much harm to so many people, and is based on harmful sex stereotypes.

Look after & respect your body.
Develop your personality.
Think critically.
Don't be a dick.
The rest is gravy.

Welcome to Mumsnet OP. Well done on finding this board and posting your first thread. What are you hoping to achieve with this thread (if you don't mind answering) ?

Do you mean “If changing sex became possible?

If it became possible it would not be possible to prevent people doing this. But it’s difficult to see how this would happen, given the biological realities

To those of you who are unaware, there is a 'Hide' the thread option. It will transform your MN experience. Goodbye.

No health orientated or cosmetic beauty seeking community is as driven and motivated as the Trans/queer community from what I have observed. I actually found myself using Trans forums to find menopause medication and info.

It's not a question of universal healthcare being available everywhere. It's a question of whether the threshold for new hormones and body modification technology becomes more ubiquitous and within reach privately. Typically and contrary to intuition, it is the poorer countries that people flood to get such treatments and where access for such treatments is more affordable and the threshold lower. Think about people going to Turkey for their butt implants or Asia for new cutting edge cosmetic interventions. You can pick up prescriptions for powerful drugs that require considerable leap frogging in more regulated countries. People are experimenting with CRISPR in their basements. Eventually the technology will improve because those who are extremely driven to seek these improvements will drive it forward and it will become streamlined and more available.

People have already shown that they are so driven they would go into debt and not care about whether the supporting healthcare structure will support them.

Perhaps it's a new tactic to divert us from writing to our MPs about the Early Day Motion. AKA reality