Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

Dungarees are like pinafore aprons but with better coverage. They send the patriarchy a message that women live active, practical lives. In the later twentieth century also sent the patriarchy a message that women felt solidarity with their working sisters. A left-wing statement.

Does an association with work seem 'unfeminine' to you? If so it demonstrates how decoupled from femaleness this 'femininity' you have imagined is.

Handy at any time, for me dungarees have always been the choice garment for messy work - in the garden, on excavations, in museum storage areas, in book stacks. I'm annoyed that a pair I've been wearing on-and-off since 1992 has just disintegrated from old age. Me next I fear.

Here are some hardworking women from 1918.

Baily's 100k or so words spread across the various threads, boiled down to 5: Let men in women's spaces.

OOOOOH! If the french aristocracy was doing it for a brief period in history everyone must have been!

"The French aristocracy wore extravagant wigs, heavy makeup, and silk stockings primarily to conceal health issues, prevent hygiene problems, and display immense wealth. These items of clothing evolved from practical, disease-masking solutions into strict, undeniable symbols of power, prestige, and class. 1, 2]

NEXT: Judges wearing wigs.

And just what are dungarees associated with? See where this is going?

Are you suggesting there are no patriarchal feminine standards now?

Make up your mind.

It's self explanatory by the use of the word "common".

Your'e almost there!

Yes! Everybody has a right to their own opinion!

Whether or not society decides to structure it that way is upto social negotiation.

It’s ok to identify with another group and feel strongly, but it’s also ok for that group to say: no, actually you aren’t. Empathising is not the same as going through something.

Stop trying to divert from the point. The context being discussed was feminine attire patriarchal expectations that Germaine Greer & other GC anti feminine stereotype thought leaders hypocritically model.

That you can't hold two conflicting thoughts in your head at once being men & women share gendered behaviours & those behaviours are more typical to one sex than the other is why GC ideology is flawed.

Trans is in essence saying 'I have more in common behaviourally with the typical behaviours of the opposite sex'& wish to be categorised that way'. They aren't saying they are identical to the opposite sex because of that behaviour. That in no way implicates cis gender non conforming people who wish to be defined/categorised by their reproductive characteristics.

Ultimately, personal social classification is a subjective based system underpinned by how an individual interprets the world & their values. IE nobody gets to tell anybody what they identify more with.

The context is more egalitarian societies.

I don’t agree with this. The GC position on single sex spaces is to do with the very real, statistically provable risk that male people pose to women and children. Not a “rigid idea” about how men behave. Men commit the vast majority of sex crimes and most violent crime. A woman is killed by a man every three days in the UK. Facts, not ideas.

Blackadder you say?

For some reason, when I saw those pink portraits up thread, what immediately came into my head was the theme music for "Blackadder".
Does that make me a man or a woman, I wonder?
Perhaps a woman, because Malala Yousafzai said she liked Blackadder too.

What I do take issue with, are those people who seemingly can understand the fundamental nature of lace as a psychologically essential part of female makeup, but seem, oddly, incorrectly tied to the concept that the "lace" in question must be pink!

I'm more concerned with why it has to be itchy. Surely that is of greater importance than pinkness. I wouldn't give it the time of day, personally.

Now that is really triggering my gender dysphoria.

No matter how much lace I wear, I'll never be read as a man by those gatekeeping feminists.

To be fair, I had to look them up. We called them "mug", "bitter glass", "larger glass/ladies bitter glass", "ladies larger glass". Male definitely was default human in the Northern 90s pubs!

This is so cool, I never knew the names of all these glass types. And now I want a Weizen (the drink not the glass). But how will I tell whether this qualifies me to apply for a male passport or a german one?

They are if they come in an extra large champagne flute.

I especially love the way the same glass was a ladies glass for bitter but a man's glass for larger. Bitter being clearly a weightier manly drink needed an extra manly glass, while larger could get away with a more gentle shape of glass.

Kind of like linen only being manly in the summer.

I may contemplate Spikes psychological sex when I have a bath later. I'm not sure what to make of her??

Obviously only in the lounge though. If you walked into the bar of a pub in the back streets of Gateshead in the 90s while being female the music scratched to a halt on the jukebox and the balls clicked to a stop on the pool table.

@FlirtsWithRhinos - I worked in a Northern pub in 1989 and got told off for serving s half in a 'Ladies glass' to a bloke. Apparently I should have asked which drink was for which sex of customer because I basically emasculated the poor sod by giving him a glass with a stem.

My aunt insisted on buying me two halves when we went out for lunch because she wouldn't buy a pint for a woman. Still, at least she bought me a drink.

I've got orange squash in a pint glass, am I non binary now?

I was a woman, but once I have that pint glass I will obviously become a man, because my psychological sex will have changed. Or something.

Ooo oooo I know this one!

Pint mugs and nonic glasses are for bitter and never ladylike.

Weizen glasses are ladylike for bitter, but manly for larger.

Pilsner glasses are ladylike for larger.

Half pints are, of course, just for children.

Source: Northern pubs in the 1990s.

Are a you a man? Pints are not ladylike.