Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

I accept that safety can be quantified (and would be grateful if e.g. Stella Creasy would do so and make some concrete proposals when discussing Equality legislation).

I'm less clear on the relevance of living authentically.

"5 minutes ago you were claiming dungarees were unfeminine. Now you are pointing out the women are the main wearers of them."

Just the opposite actually.

"But even if a pink, sequined, lacey, flower patterned dress is the most female coded item you can think of a man doesn't become a woman by wearing one. He is just a bloke in a dress. It matters not if the dress is a black shirt dress or the pink sparkly one. Clothes don't alter the wears sex."

No one is saying they alter biological sex. The context is common inclinations with a biological sex makes them more associated with them.

You don't understand. It's not just wearing the clothes, it's wearing the clothes because you really really want to wear the clothes. Because your entire soul yearns for pink lacy dungarees and frameless glasses and the ladies toilet and you can never be truly you without them.

Like transubstantiation, it doesn't work just performing the same action, only if you truuuuuuly belieeeeeeeeeeeeeve.

You realise Facebook is a social media app not parliamentary question time?
Oh wait……

If you are attempting to play dumb to the obvious quantifiable safety issues trans people face as a result of hate crimes then why would anyone in their right minds entertain you as an honest broker?

5 minutes ago you were claiming dungarees were unfeminine. Now you are pointing out the women are the main wearers of them.

But even if a pink, sequined, lacey, flower patterned dress is the most female coded item you can think of a man doesn't become a woman by wearing one. He is just a bloke in a dress. It matters not if the dress is a black shirt dress or the pink sparkly one. Clothes don't alter the wears sex.

'No debate'

How 2022 of her.

At a guess women (more of us working in cleaning, childcare and caring and needing protective clothing), but so what?

It is relevant if she is challenging the code.

'safely and authentically' must mean something quantifiable.

Can't blame her. It's one thing to ask questions out of genuine curiosity & another to snarkily do so. You clearly aren't a good faith interlocutor & she knows it.

Uh huh, & what sex wears dungarees & pinafores more often?

Next.

Thank you for explaining to us all that you don't understand the difference between stereotypes (social expectations) & typical behaviours (more common behaviours).

May I suggest consulting a dictionary to avoid further embarrassment next time?

Well that makes things very clear. Bailey thinks it's fine for people to choose their own categories based on what stereotypes they feel they have in common. Bailey is wrong, that is not how categories work. It is very harmful to women to allow men to identify into their category because it means the category can't do the work it is supposed to do to protect the interests, needs and rights of the people with female bodies.

Has already been tried at Hampstead Ponds.

They were indeed asked to leave.

Well said

Whether or not society decides to structure it that way is upto social negotiation.

Nope- woman is not up for negotiation, there is no way to tell if someone is actually trans so there is no way to just let some men in. Women's space are for women. If some men choose not to use men's spaces that's on them not us.

Oh and drop the cis women are not a sub category of women.

Im glad you agree, for a long time people who hold sex realist opinions were called transphobes and have suffered harassment arrests, job loss, threats things like that.
I only wish trans identifying men would listen more to people like you and come to appreciate your point of view. They are still stuck in the trans women are women mindset of the past, and are still threatening women who hold their own opinions with ‘rape with a splintery rolling pin’ and other such delightful threats.
Perhaps you should go on Reddit and continue this discussion with them, see if they can be persuaded that everyone can hold their own opinion.

I have often thought what would happen if a bunch of women just got fully naked in a men’s changing room and started walking around. When challenged they just say we are trans men. Whilst I am sure people would laugh and say the men would love it and think it’s just a big ol joke, I expect honestly the vast majority of men would feel as uncomfortable as women would in the opposite situation and that has nothing to do with feeling a threat.

Gender neutral loos are often very unsavoury because some men's standards of cleanliness are different from women's, as any train traveller learns.

Not wanting men in the women's loos is not just about avoiding voyeurs, exhibitionists, and rapists.

Men cannot be women.

Men cannot be female.

Men can present as 'feminine'.

Women are female.

Women will remain female whether or not they present as 'feminine'.

The standard of what is 'feminine' is culturally constructed and changes all the time.

That in no way implicates cis gender non conforming people who wish to be defined/categorised by their reproductive characteristics.

Implicates? I can't make this sentence make sense. Implicates what? Do you mean impacts? It very much does impact women if the definition of women becomes adult human females and some adult human males.

I guess men can't wrap their heads around why some women don't want to be naked in front of man because 'hey I don't care if a chick sees the goods' but that is because women (as a class) aren't a threat to men (as a class) in the same way.

One more time, men can wear what they like (within the bounds of decency and appropriateness), choose to use whatever name they like, have any hobbies, jobs or interests that they like but none of this will make them a woman and they need stay out of female single sex spaces.

Exactly.

It's not unreasonable for anyone to wish to be included in a group they feel they have a lot in common with. But that group has the right to say no. Being excluded from the category of "woman" does not deprive transwomen of any human or civil rights. They have all the same rights as every other human being.

Giving them the right to force their way into a group they don't actually belong to would give that group - the group known as "women" - a uniquely diminished status. No other groups in which people find themselves by birth or accident are forced to admit people simply on the grounds of a claimed "identity". I can't demand disabled status simply by claiming to be disabled. I can't join the BIPOC group simply by claiming I "feel more black than white".

Self-determination does not mean anyone has the right to force themselves into protected spaces intended only for the use of a group to which they do not belong.

Is this a bit like 'all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others'?

So:
'Research shows that males and females share the vast majority of cognitive abilities, leadership traits, and personality dimensions, but despite this it is scientifically uncontroversial that some cognitive abilities & personality dimensions are associated with ladybrain and some are manly.'

Is that it?

Thank you for this, @Baileyonice.

Confirmation that trans identity is simply about stereotypes:

Trans is in essence saying 'I have more in common behaviourally with the typical behaviours of the opposite sex'& wish to be categorised that way'.

It's unsurprising that those of us who have spent a lifetime trying to escape the narrow confines of female stereotyping have no time for all this trans nonsense.

'Woman' is not a stereotype, it's a biological reality. It doesn't matter how we behave, we're still women. It doesn't matter how men behave, they're still men.