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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

540 replies

Pyjamatimenow · 01/06/2026 23:42

Friend of mine has posted on her social media ( a very long detailed post) that basically trans rights are women’s rights and that what she sees as transphobia is akin to people who ‘punish’ women who don’t fit into gender stereotypes, don’t get married, don’t look ‘feminine’, don’t have children…Says she’s a feminist and defends the rights of trans women to live safely etc …whatever that means. Cis women mentioned several times. I don’t normally comment on these kinds of things on FB but struggling with this particular post! If I were to say something what would you say?

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Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 10:13

Gotobedbyday · 04/06/2026 10:06

Men are murdered more than women in every country. Apart from men who identify as women - those men are murdered at a substantially lower rate than women, but retain the same level of male offending (and several times the level of sex offending than other men).

those men are murdered at a substantially lower rate than women, but retain the same level of male offending (and several times the level of sex offending than other men).

None of that is a fact given its impossible to make statistical conclusions from insignificant numbers.

May I suggest a rudimentary course in statistics?

nicepotoftea · 04/06/2026 10:09

Gotobedbyday · 04/06/2026 10:06

Men are murdered more than women in every country. Apart from men who identify as women - those men are murdered at a substantially lower rate than women, but retain the same level of male offending (and several times the level of sex offending than other men).

This is such a basic point.

Pyjamatimenow · 04/06/2026 10:07

@thirdfiddle She should very well know. She works in job where she will encounter women harmed at the hands of men every day. I do feel that I need to defend myself here as dislike the implication I am somehow a bigot for asking.
I’ve just said that I supported Pride for years and was very happy when gay people won the right to marry eleven years ago. I was just asking to clarify her post but respected her right as a woman to say ‘no’ and hold boundaries that feel healthy for her.

OP posts:
Gotobedbyday · 04/06/2026 10:06

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 09:41

And there's plenty of countries where men are murdered more than women but that doesn't mean there isn't a women's safety issue there.

Men are murdered more than women in every country. Apart from men who identify as women - those men are murdered at a substantially lower rate than women, but retain the same level of male offending (and several times the level of sex offending than other men).

GriseldaandMike · 04/06/2026 10:06

nutmeg7 · 04/06/2026 09:38

There are plenty of public trans figure who claim that their sex has indeed been altered. The receipts are all out there, no point gaslighting otherwise.

Indeed, 'Trans women are women' is the mantra. And saying 'no, they are men' lands women in hot water. If the TRA stance was 'men who like pink things are men who like pink things' there would be no disagreement.

nicepotoftea · 04/06/2026 10:04

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 10:01

On the other hand I have the right to access education and the right to work and the right not to suffer unlawful discrimination because of my sex. These rights have been made possible both by legislation and by my free access to contraception and female specific health care.

Basic rights so you can live more authentically unlike in Victorian times?

You're almost there.

No, basic rights so I can access education and earn a living and don't starve.

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 10:01

nicepotoftea · 04/06/2026 09:57

No, I am not living authentically at all!!!!! Thank you for asking!!!!!!

I very much am NOT living on a yacht and I do NOT have a stable full of horses!!!!!!

Sometimes it's just the little things you know - like not having an EU passport any more because I 'don't meet the criteria', even though I really, really like to eat croissants.

And can I travel for free after 9.30 am in London even though I am neither a resident nor over the age of 60? A bit fat NO! I love the Piccadilly line, but nobody cares!

Where do I complain?? Is there an email address or phone number?

On the other hand I have the right to access education and the right to work and the right not to suffer unlawful discrimination because of my sex. These rights have been made possible both by legislation and by my free access to contraception and female specific health care.

I also pretty much wear what ever I want, and have the freedom to marry who ever I want regardless of their sex.

On the other hand I have the right to access education and the right to work and the right not to suffer unlawful discrimination because of my sex. These rights have been made possible both by legislation and by my free access to contraception and female specific health care.

Basic rights so you can live more authentically unlike in Victorian times?

You're almost there.

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 09:59

nutmeg7 · 04/06/2026 09:35

Your thinking is just so muddled it’s not worth engaging with.

Stereotypes are not the same as expectations.

They are drawn from fairly commonly experienced real behaviours. If they contained no kernel of real experience, they would not survive as stereotypes.

Societal expectations are when “society” expects individuals from both sexes to conform to the stereotypes that exist.

In this context, stereotypes can be harmful to anyone who doesn’t conform to them. Most people do not conform to all or even the majority of the stereotypes associated with their sex.

None of this is particularly controversial.

Confirming to some of the stereotypes associated with opposite sex does not make you that sex.

You are essentially arguing that you want to organise the world by whether people’s hobbies, clothing choice and personality traits align more with male or female stereotypes.

Whereas the world is organised by sex because we are mammals and men have huge physical advantages over women should they choose to use them. Women are vulnerable to men.

I am sure you don’t dispute that the vast majority of violence is committed by men (people with male bodies).

In social psychology, a stereotype is a generalized belief about a particular category of people.[2] It is an expectation that people might have about every person of a particular group. The type of expectation can vary; it can be, for example, an expectation about the group's personality, preferences, appearance or ability.

Generalization - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization

nicepotoftea · 04/06/2026 09:57

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 09:39

Well do you live authentically ? Are living authentically now by expressing your personality traits/organic inclinations? Living your life freely making choices based on what fits your personal disposition?

Maybe think about how this applies to you & whether women in say Victorian times could live 'authentically' or had to repress their natural inclinations that men didn't.

No, I am not living authentically at all!!!!! Thank you for asking!!!!!!

I very much am NOT living on a yacht and I do NOT have a stable full of horses!!!!!!

Sometimes it's just the little things you know - like not having an EU passport any more because I 'don't meet the criteria', even though I really, really like to eat croissants.

And can I travel for free after 9.30 am in London even though I am neither a resident nor over the age of 60? A bit fat NO! I love the Piccadilly line, but nobody cares!

Where do I complain?? Is there an email address or phone number?

On the other hand I have the right to access education and the right to work and the right not to suffer unlawful discrimination because of my sex. These rights have been made possible both by legislation and by my free access to contraception and female specific health care.

I also pretty much wear what ever I want, and have the freedom to marry who ever I want regardless of their sex.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/06/2026 09:54

BananaPeels · 04/06/2026 09:42

I’m completely lost as to what you are going on about.

people can wear what they like. (Well I can’t wear a bikini to work- apparently it isn’t ‘professional’). What has that got to do with what sex you are?

All I would say regards Bailey is that just because he turns up, spouting AI incoherent nonsense doesn't mean we have to play with him

thirdfiddle · 04/06/2026 09:54

Pyjamatimenow · 04/06/2026 09:42

Her post wasn’t clear what she was advocating for. Many women in the group wouldn’t realise.

I wonder if she's even clear herself what she's advocating for. Like the workers of the world thing, the greengrocer doesn't know what the sign means he just knows he's supposed to display it to not get in trouble.

BananaPeels · 04/06/2026 09:49

nutmeg7 · 04/06/2026 09:47

Of course! I should have understood it sooner. I am a man because I like maths, and can reverse park like a ninja, have I got it correct?

In Australia they ruled that just wearing jeans and a white shirt makes someone a man. I had no idea I was a man until that point .

nutmeg7 · 04/06/2026 09:47

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/06/2026 09:44

He probably thinks committing violence actually makes a person of either sex indisbutably a man.

After all, if he's going by what is more common to one sex than another, violence and sexual abuse is a far stronger correlation to being male than checks notes frameless glasses are to being female! So if you are going to go with latter as a meaningful indication of gender you are kind of obliged to accept the former as well.

Of course! I should have understood it sooner. I am a man because I like maths, and can reverse park like a ninja, have I got it correct?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/06/2026 09:44

nutmeg7 · 04/06/2026 09:35

Your thinking is just so muddled it’s not worth engaging with.

Stereotypes are not the same as expectations.

They are drawn from fairly commonly experienced real behaviours. If they contained no kernel of real experience, they would not survive as stereotypes.

Societal expectations are when “society” expects individuals from both sexes to conform to the stereotypes that exist.

In this context, stereotypes can be harmful to anyone who doesn’t conform to them. Most people do not conform to all or even the majority of the stereotypes associated with their sex.

None of this is particularly controversial.

Confirming to some of the stereotypes associated with opposite sex does not make you that sex.

You are essentially arguing that you want to organise the world by whether people’s hobbies, clothing choice and personality traits align more with male or female stereotypes.

Whereas the world is organised by sex because we are mammals and men have huge physical advantages over women should they choose to use them. Women are vulnerable to men.

I am sure you don’t dispute that the vast majority of violence is committed by men (people with male bodies).

He probably thinks committing violence actually makes a person of either sex indisbutably a man.

After all, if he's going by what is more common to one sex than another, violence and sexual abuse is a far stronger correlation to being male than checks notes frameless glasses are to being female! So if you are going to go with latter as a meaningful indication of gender you are kind of obliged to accept the former as well.

Pyjamatimenow · 04/06/2026 09:42

thirdfiddle · 04/06/2026 09:35

Oh dear. It's all very "Workers of the world unite" isn't it.
How you react now really depends whether you care about her group. The pompousness and word salad would incline me to flounce but I don't have much patience for these things.

Her post wasn’t clear what she was advocating for. Many women in the group wouldn’t realise.

OP posts:
BananaPeels · 04/06/2026 09:42

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 09:39

Well do you live authentically ? Are living authentically now by expressing your personality traits/organic inclinations? Living your life freely making choices based on what fits your personal disposition?

Maybe think about how this applies to you & whether women in say Victorian times could live 'authentically' or had to repress their natural inclinations that men didn't.

I’m completely lost as to what you are going on about.

people can wear what they like. (Well I can’t wear a bikini to work- apparently it isn’t ‘professional’). What has that got to do with what sex you are?

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 09:41

Gotobedbyday · 04/06/2026 09:34

One aspect that we can quantify is the risk of being murdered. What is quite clear when we do quantify this is that men who identify as women are an order of magnitude less likely to be murdered than other men. This holds true even in the favelas of South America where the risk to male trans prostitutes is highest - it is still much lower than the risk other men there face,

And there's plenty of countries where men are murdered more than women but that doesn't mean there isn't a women's safety issue there.

nutmeg7 · 04/06/2026 09:39

DeanElderberry · 04/06/2026 09:17

'No debate'

How 2022 of her.

It’s no debate because there is nothing coherent to debate.

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 09:39

nicepotoftea · 04/06/2026 09:28

I accept that safety can be quantified (and would be grateful if e.g. Stella Creasy would do so and make some concrete proposals when discussing Equality legislation).

I'm less clear on the relevance of living authentically.

Edited

Well do you live authentically ? Are living authentically now by expressing your personality traits/organic inclinations? Living your life freely making choices based on what fits your personal disposition?

Maybe think about how this applies to you & whether women in say Victorian times could live 'authentically' or had to repress their natural inclinations that men didn't.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/06/2026 09:38

nicepotoftea · 04/06/2026 09:28

I accept that safety can be quantified (and would be grateful if e.g. Stella Creasy would do so and make some concrete proposals when discussing Equality legislation).

I'm less clear on the relevance of living authentically.

Edited

Also, less clear on why the solution to this is to decide that some male people who feel scared, but not all male who feel scared, can use the ladies loos.

I mean, we don't open the ladies loos up to men in the wrong team's shirt and I know plenty of pubs where that's far more likely to get a kicking than being trans.

nutmeg7 · 04/06/2026 09:38

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 09:28

"5 minutes ago you were claiming dungarees were unfeminine. Now you are pointing out the women are the main wearers of them."

Just the opposite actually.

"But even if a pink, sequined, lacey, flower patterned dress is the most female coded item you can think of a man doesn't become a woman by wearing one. He is just a bloke in a dress. It matters not if the dress is a black shirt dress or the pink sparkly one. Clothes don't alter the wears sex."

No one is saying they alter biological sex. The context is common inclinations with a biological sex makes them more associated with them.

There are plenty of public trans figure who claim that their sex has indeed been altered. The receipts are all out there, no point gaslighting otherwise.

nutmeg7 · 04/06/2026 09:35

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 08:45

Thank you for explaining to us all that you don't understand the difference between stereotypes (social expectations) & typical behaviours (more common behaviours).

May I suggest consulting a dictionary to avoid further embarrassment next time?

Your thinking is just so muddled it’s not worth engaging with.

Stereotypes are not the same as expectations.

They are drawn from fairly commonly experienced real behaviours. If they contained no kernel of real experience, they would not survive as stereotypes.

Societal expectations are when “society” expects individuals from both sexes to conform to the stereotypes that exist.

In this context, stereotypes can be harmful to anyone who doesn’t conform to them. Most people do not conform to all or even the majority of the stereotypes associated with their sex.

None of this is particularly controversial.

Confirming to some of the stereotypes associated with opposite sex does not make you that sex.

You are essentially arguing that you want to organise the world by whether people’s hobbies, clothing choice and personality traits align more with male or female stereotypes.

Whereas the world is organised by sex because we are mammals and men have huge physical advantages over women should they choose to use them. Women are vulnerable to men.

I am sure you don’t dispute that the vast majority of violence is committed by men (people with male bodies).

thirdfiddle · 04/06/2026 09:35

Oh dear. It's all very "Workers of the world unite" isn't it.
How you react now really depends whether you care about her group. The pompousness and word salad would incline me to flounce but I don't have much patience for these things.

Gotobedbyday · 04/06/2026 09:34

Baileyonice · 04/06/2026 09:21

If you are attempting to play dumb to the obvious quantifiable safety issues trans people face as a result of hate crimes then why would anyone in their right minds entertain you as an honest broker?

One aspect that we can quantify is the risk of being murdered. What is quite clear when we do quantify this is that men who identify as women are an order of magnitude less likely to be murdered than other men. This holds true even in the favelas of South America where the risk to male trans prostitutes is highest - it is still much lower than the risk other men there face,

Keeptoiletssafe · 04/06/2026 09:32

nicepotoftea · 04/06/2026 09:28

I accept that safety can be quantified (and would be grateful if e.g. Stella Creasy would do so and make some concrete proposals when discussing Equality legislation).

I'm less clear on the relevance of living authentically.

Edited

…now if we’re talking safety, I indeed have a lot of data and evidence that men and women should have separate toilets.