Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

The old “listen” when they mean “obey” slip there.

as described the OP’s friend has posted incoherent drivel, littered with logical fallacies.
It won’t be worth engaging with.

the irony 😂😂😂😂😂. My sides!

The only thing that's a gateway drug is a puberty blocker and hormones. I really hope you're not one of those parents.

If your fb friend thinks is how womanhood has to be performed then she's deluded. Womanhood is not clothes/heels/stockings/make up/jewllery etc

x.com/jan_murray/status/2060614040120889844?s=46

She seems lovely. And entirely correct.

Transphobia solves nothing, endangers women's rights and is a gateway drug for fascism.

@OtterlyAstoundingI know - it's intersectional groupiness. We all stand together etc your fight is my fight. They came for them, next they'll come for you blah blah blah

could you post the Venn diagram (picture incoming) to acknowledge there IS an overlap in terms of rejecting gender stereotypes, but there are also some significant distinctions between feminism and gender ideology.

I’m not brave and it’s easy to make excuses but I don’t think there is any value at all in responding to someone’s post on Facebook. So I wouldn’t think that you have to do that.

I do think that homophobia and transphobia have misogyny as one of their fundamental bases. The idea that men must behave and present in a certain way and that if they don’t, they are feminine, which is inherently wrong for men, is misogynistic. The idea that men presenting as women are in fact women is a different strand of the same misogyny.

What I’m grappling with at the moment is that I do feel a dislike of overt feminine presentation both in men and women, and scared of people thinking I present that way. That to me is yet another strand of misogyny, with an additional class basis, and I’m not quite sure how to think about it or handle it.

Sorry. I just read your op again and see the main point is gender policing and traditional gender stereotypes. So probably my helpful suggestion above isn’t so helpful. I will move along now!!

You can choose to protect your peace - as I think debating over Facebook is a dreadful way of discussing anything. It’s a lot of people who want to have their, usually, unqualified say.

Or, you could post something along the lines of:

I have read your points very carefully. For me, The word woman is not neutral. It has meaning at the moment which carries legal protections. Once there is only male and biologically mixed spaces - female only spaces get erased completely. Once gone, it is not simple to get them back.

A test has unwittingly been carried out in the world of sport. It’s not actually gone very well and there has been a lot of moves to reinstate female only categories, quite quickly following allowing trans women into female sport. What sporting federations acted on- which was not welcoming transwomen to compete in their chosen female category was unacceptable, unkind and in uninclusive. However this theory didn’t work in practice. Biological differences do matter profoundly. It is a matter of safety and protection for all participants.

We don’t need to repeat the mistakes of the sporting world on a larger scale, as it’s possible to have male/female and open (mixed) categories. This allows us to retain accurate data and to affirm people’s personal worth without removing protective limits for biological females.

And then link it to one of those pictures of women’s sport where the reality of losing to transwomen which is visually striking.

No, but hypocrisy will always be pointed out

Now some might say that trans people promote sexist stereotypes by expressing traditional /feminine behaviours but don't cis women too?

Many people here - the majority, I think - support the rights of men who want to do so to wear dresses and makeup and behave in what might be called a traditional feminine way.

But men who do, do so as men and in spite of being male, rather than as an expression of being women, which they are not.

The common refrain we hear from GC talking points is 'trans people promote stereotypes by claiming the are the opposite gender'

I think you've misunderstood. Trans people co-opt, utilize and leverage stereotypes in order to claim - for the purpose of claiming - they are the opposite sex. That's a rather different matter. Look at me - I'm wearing a frock therefore I'm a woman. No, you're not. You're a man in a frock.

Well that's one way of admitting you got your ass handed to you on a plate, I suppose.

It's not gender policing.

It's insisting that biology matters.

It's also insisting that dressing up heels, a frock, and makeup is performative stereotyping, the ultimate in gender policing.

Blimey, thats a lot of words to say women cannot organise without the permission and inclusion of men.

I have a fb friend posting similar. I am in a position where I absolutely cannot voice dissent so I ignore. I’ve noticed that she only gets a very low percentage of her many followers reacting to these posts.

And I had to LOL at the idea that the guiding principle of feminism is self determination. 😂Actual women know that our biological reality is what determines our experience, not ourselves. If it did we wouldn’t need feminism at all.

Best educate yourself of your ideological 'limitations' first. There are a couple of reasons why you are failing to grasp her post.

Firstly, you don't seem to understand the guiding principle of feminism which is self determination that isn't limited by reproductive biological characteristics. Principles retain their legitimacy only when they are consistently held. One simply can't demand self determination for one's self (women) & deny it to others (trans people). Reducing trans people's identity to deluded 'performers' of the opposite sex is an attack on their self determination which ironically mirrors MRA's who reduce feminism to simply 'man envy' rather than recognise their inherent psychological interchangeability with men. See the parallels between trans & women's struggles?

The second reason you are struggling to understand her post is gender critical ideology is underpinned by blank slatism. That is, they don't believe feminine & masculine expressions are organic inclinations rather imposed culturally as Germaine Greer explains below all while she is ironically 'performing' stereotypical femininity with her feminine presentation.

What gender critical's & GG seem to miss is humans don't blindly replicate one another. We don't do monkey see monkey do. There's usually what's called a 'missing link' where 'copying' is preceded by an organic inclination to a preference. Our inclinations often have deep roots in genetic & hormonal influences that form our personality traits. Again, feminism wasn't about 'copying' men because there was nothing to copy. We women already had within us the same psychological traits that legitimised equal treatment.

Another example of transphobia being rooted in misogyny is how much more trans women are demonised & dehumanised than trans men particularly as being motivated by sexual deviancy & predation.

The common refrain we hear from GC talking points is 'trans people promote stereotypes by claiming the are the opposite gender' but even if they didn't claim they were the opposite gender we all know that despite what a natal male who expresses feminine presentation calls themselves it would still be socially unacceptable but not so for a butch natal female. Clearly there's misogynist social expectations regarding gender expression that is unrelated to what trans people call themselves & yet trans people are accused of being the enablers of it.

Now some might say that trans people promote sexist stereotypes by expressing traditional /feminine behaviours but don't cis women too? Aren't they 'promoting' misogyny too? Or are they 'let off the hook' for 'not knowing any better' as hapless 'victims' lacking autonomy? Or might it be both these groups like what they like because of internal inclinations that just so happen to be aligned with social expectations but still have every right to self determination just like everyone else.

Hilarious.

Gives it, but can’t bear to take it.

PPs have pretty much covered everything I think (except ReaperGirl, who I disagree with), but I do want to say how much it annoys me to hear 'trans rights are women's rights'.

It's like if someone said 'worker's rights are animal rights' - what on earth is the connection there? Or 'men's rights are women's rights', when that's definitely not the case. It's utterly nonsensical as the two are not the same at all, and of course, as we know, actually clash and conflict with each other.

I would say that gender as a construct is the foundation of gender policing and the source of misogyny. That women's rights, as far as they call for differential treatment of, or spaces and services for, women vis-a-vis men, are only really valid on the basis of sex, not gender.

That triangley thing. There are some good memes of it. It goes something like this:

Conservatism: change your personality to match your body.
Transgenderism: change your body to match your personality.
Feminism: both your body and your personality are just fine the way they are.

Maybe see if you can find a nice cartooney version?

I understand your frustration because when it was really bad about 7 years ago, pre Forstater, I was working in a job where I had to keep quiet and nod along, to an extent. I subverted where I could.