Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

Totally agree.

X post with you @OtterlyAstounding as we are referring to the same misunderstanding.

What I find is that trans rights activists disregard the process of socialisation on boys/men and girls/women.

Do they? I just think that men are male and women are female, because they are. End of. Behaviour does tend to follow cultural trends, but one's behaviour has absolutely nothing to do with whether one is male or female.

Yup. Good graphic.

And again with the graphic:

Shouldn’t matter either way. We all know whether we are a man or a woman so should be self policing. Shouldn’t even be an issue. This is only an issue as people claim to be the opposite sex when they know they aren’t. It isn’t for other members of society to police them.

Absolutely- it’s a feature of the movement.

Really? Aren't the new EHRC guidelines GC's demanded requiring surface level observation & not gamete tests for enforcement?

The weirdest thing is that the opposite is true. Trans rights are policing stereotypes. You are only a women if you look like one and vv. I have always found it interesting that people on the trans rights side of the debate use arguments for the other side as their arguments when in fact they are arguing against themselves.

Feminism is the journey we take to free ourselves of gender.

Uh huh, good luck with that.

https://theconversation.com/sex-differences-dont-disappear-as-a-countrys-equality-develops-sometimes-they-become-stronger-222932

Yes I very much can. In this thread alone there are lots of sex based assumptions. Across the site? Millions. It's extremely conservative here, overall.

One clarification to my above post: by young daughter I mean young woman.

IKR

Howse that for a coincidence?

lol 2017 called and wants its 'arguments' nack

Hahaha yep exactly on queue. "Monkey see monkey do", right?

You do realise, knowing that is your playbook reply, I anticipated and counterargued already, right?

Feminism is the journey we take to free ourselves of gender.

I'd try to bring her back down to earth a bit.
It's all very well having her opinion but sometimes when you're confronted with the reality of a man in a dress stripping off in front of you or your young daughter and you just sense he's getting off on it in a changing room well lets just say all the theory goes out the window.
Ask her to imagine that reality.
(Let's hope she doesn't live it.)

And, yes, a lot of these men get off on it.
Makes my skin crawl.

There's a reason why all this trans shit is labelled a luxury belief.
And while I appreciate that of course it's a feminist issue, sometimes just focusing on that wholly may not be the right approach.

For me, it's not about who's the better feminist or who's more right, it's to stop these men taking over female spaces.

The sad thing is that there are genuinely interesting things to say about how patriachy's rejection of the female and devaluing of the person penetrated becomes disgust of anything culturally seen as feminine, how that manifests in misogyny, homophobia and transphobia (the latter in the real sense of disgust of people who are gender non-conforming not the TRA sense of "saying no to those who think we should be redefining ourselves by gender stereotypes"), and how gay people, homosexuality acts (not necessarily by people who see themselves as gay) and trans people have become culturally entwined in different ways in different patriachal culture.

But that is not what your friend is getting at. Your friend is just falling for the superficial con of "if a woman can be anything she wants, then "woman" can mean anything anyone wants, including male people's inner selves".

And sadly it's a conversation that will remain impossible as long as TRAs insist that trans people literally are in some ihe sex they aspire to be, because they not only deny the differences between the needs, drivers and experiences of women and trans identifying men, but even the language and concepts we need to have a discussion at all.

You can't have been paying much attention while "watching" mumsnet if that's the conclusion you've drawn

"The idea that we aren't shaped by the "norms" we see as we grow up and even as adults is so blatantly laughable that only a deeply solipsistic person would deny it, because such a person's ego cannot face it."

Do you even realise what you are saying about women here? That they aren't capable of knowing their own minds & expressing it? That their own personal preferences are completely vulnerable to social conditioning? That their emotions rule their minds hence they aren't suitable for positions of power?

You realise all this is a favourite MRA talking point right?

There is no more misogynist ideology than one that believes women particularly those of modernity aren't capable of rational thinking because they are slaves to approval.

What I notice about both very pro-trans rights people and GC people on places like here is that they do share very rigid ideas about the sexes.

It's veey much like men are X and women are Y (or maybe the other way around!). Most arguments on both sides are founded in the belief that men have a shared set of thoughts, behaviours and intentions and women do, too. It's interesting to watch.

Fortunately genitals are not the only physical difference between men and women. I have been wearing 'mens' clothes (I.e. trousers, shirts, etc) for decades and not once have I been mistaken for a man, even though I'm average male height. We can tell because woman aren't men and vice versa.

@Pyjamatimenow i haven’t used fb for years now, something I feel very strongly about was being constantly defended by my friends and it’s something I legitimately understand, their feelings on it outweigh sense and it’s a very dangerous view they’re peddling. It’s horrid when you feel like a pariah with your friends because your views differ so much from your own.
I honestly wouldn’t bother commenting, how many times have people been swayed over the internet to succumb to the opposite opinion? The Trans debates are very divisive. I have trans friends I love dearly but disagree with so many narratives being pushed by the wider community and for lack of better words because I’ve not had a coffee yet, many of the people within the community I find blatantly noncey and predatory. I can love my very long term friends who’ve been trans for many years. (Actually one of my friends is from primary school, now she, but he, at PE when we were very small children would wear my gingham summer dress before getting into his pe kit as he just wanted to wear something pretty. The 90s were not kind to him and by early 2000s my friend had made a serious attempt on their own life) anyway, he is now a she but bless doesn’t pass at all as a woman. I know calling my friend her will upset some posters but I can’t say him unless it’s past tense. But my friend doesn’t pass as a woman. But mentally is much more sane being able to be called a female name, wearing floaty dresses and being in a relationship with a man. My friend has heath complications also so always uses the disabled loo. Anyway I love my pals dearly and defend their right to wear and present how they are happy. However I also think they should be given 3rd spaces for toilets and changing rooms. Even though both TW friends have zero interest in women sexually, it’s still not fair on women who do not want to share spaces with biomen. It’s hard to have such fundamental differences between your friends, but you can choose what to react to and not.

And how do they know "who is a woman" is that appearance based or do they look at genitals first?

I'm a parent who doesn't spend my life vexing about a minority and imagining it's feminism.

I'd never reject my child for who they are, or try to control them.

The vast, vast majority of trans kids will never even get counselling for their gender dysphoria. Surgery for under-18s is banned most places.

But trans men are being forced towards surgery by denial of care when they were younger, which is awful.

Anyone who obsesses over children's bodies online should really consider how they look to other people. It's suspect as hell, given the tiny number of trans kids who take hormones or blockers.

Women's rights are undermined by anti-trans activism. It promotes gender conformity, disparages female accomplishment in sport, and encourages the idea of limiting what young women should be able to do with their bodies.

It attracts men who like talking about children's bodies, the far right (because it normalises the use of slurs, encourages the idea that minorities can be attacked, infantilises women) and people who enjoy bullying.

I've encountered some good people on here. But many are simply eager to throw hate, resorting to furious sarcasm and glorying in being abusive. That is resulting in a lot of real-world violence, while doing nothing to combat VAWG.

It's enjoyable, though. Far more fun to discuss whether trans women should be allowed to modify their bodies than reckon with the horrifying rape injustice stories of the past week.

But I think my biggest issue with transphobia is how it lets violent cis men off the hook. Their abhorrent behaviour is seen as inevitable and unchallengable, so best focus on making sure completely public, unprotected spaces don't contain the odd trans woman instead. Throw some slurs at them, make it a game! Maybe film a few signs? Be furious when a trans man appears on a dating show - that'll help! Oh look, a flag! In Waitrose!

Meanwhile, violent cis men and paedophiles are delighted, because they can join in too. Telling women they'll be their protectors. Attacking parents for standing up for their kids.

I'm a parent who rejects the petty, do-nothing, deeply reductionist opinions of transphobia, and is right now praying my child comes home safe.

Well, you asked.