James Murray on R4 just now - TWANW

Government ministers have to toe the party line - they get briefed in exactly what to say in these situations. So the government's current line on the gender stuff is that organisations must follow the Supreme Court ruling, and that trans people must be treated with respect, dignity, blah blah.

It would be mad, in my view, if the government said that organisations shouldn't follow the Supreme Court ruling. So he pretty much has to say that - unless the government decides it wants to reform the Equality Act, which would be very foolish, frankly.

And they have to include the line about trans people having dignity etc because they don't want to be seen by activists as transphobic, though fat lot of good it will do them.

Well quite.

And do ANY transwomen pass? I can't think of a single one in the public eye who does - despite these guys having the best access to surgeries and in some cases being puberty blocked.

I think the majority of TW don’t need to worry about being outed. I also don’t think they should worry about being more likely to be assaulted in the toilets than on the street. Women were always told a man didn’t need to go into the women’s toilets to assault or rape a woman, they’d do it anyway. Surely the same applies to TW? So no added risk to using the men’s.

Haha yes so much this 😂

I understand that Trans people are really worried about being "outed" in the same way that gay people were because it would materially effect their ability to participate in life.

But if men go out in public wearing make up, wigs or women's clothes, they are out. Using a particular toilet or changing room doesn't "out" them - we all know they are men, and presumably trans.

Of course many think they pass, maybe because they are just deluded, or maybe because their friends tell them they pass and strangers, especially women, avoid saying anything.

What excellent news!

He’s a politician so no doubt there is advantage in him saying this - but to say it now is quite unexpected and fabulous.

Especially as there are MPs who will now start campaigning to have the EA changed to match Australia’s situation…. I think we may soon have a lot to thank Sal Grover for. If not for her case many MPs might be unaware of the implications which are now being played out in Oz and which they’ll have no desire to be caught up in prior to the next UK General Election.

My question is what is happening behind the scenes in Westminster that has allowed this shift?

The Health Minister publicly saying he’s changed his mind and MPs now accepting the EHRC Guidance - maybe the year of procrastination and recent enslaught of negative court cases/tribunals/publicity has got us to the tipping point?

What has changed in the last few weeks in the unions and Labour Party to get us here when they were all previously no debate. Even my rabid TWAW MP seems to be softening (only slightly) their messaging on this… when only in April they were still hard line…?

I'm not so sure that nobody believes it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1tt09hw/how_can_i_become_female/

I think it would have been helpful if some of those "quiet transpeople" had spoken up against the rabid activists in the past 15 years, but I suppose they were just keeping their heads down, while activists took over women's spaces. Nothing to do with them, I guess. Well, they can now lift their heads up and start campaigning and fundraising for their mixed-sex, universal, accessible, whatever spaces. They had just better not start taking them from disabled people.

I agree with this - providing of course that the accessible provision isn't at the expense of another group.

Yeah, I used to think, 'Oh, the poor trans people - they need our support.' Now, after a decade+ of their nonsense, screaming, doxxing, violence and lies... well, they can fuck off and sort out their own issues. Women owe them nothing. Rather, they owe us - a massive apology would be a good start.

The only ones I still feel sorry for are those (many of them autistic) who were sucked into this as children and YAs.

We dont have to support TRAs - but there are probably a few trans people around who have been quietly getting on with their lives and not using single sex spaces if there is an alternative. We can and should support requests for more accessible provision.

I don’t think very many people really believe TWAW.

I suspect there is some relief at not having to keep pretending to believe this, but also fear of attack from backbenchers and activists.

I'm starting to see a bit more of what I am calling (in my own head) "Persuasive TRA." Now that they have lost everything that they bullied women for, some activists seem to be changing tack. Women must now fix the situation that TRAs have found themselves in. It seems to pivot on a sort of Be Kind 2.0.

I think women who have been in the game long enough will see through it, but we should be watchful. Stonewall is pivoting, activists are pivoting, and they will be preying on women's socialized kindness: watch for the destination and be on your guard.

Male violence against transwomen would be closer to homophobia than misogyny, if it doesn't have its own word.

Such ignorant and violent men would be reacting against the transwoman being a non-conforming man, i.e. similar to how some gay men are non-conforming to stereotypes of masculinity, rather than reacting against the transwoman being a woman (because of course everyone can see they are not a woman).

Like fuck we do!

"That doesn't mean that there isn't a threat to transwomen which comes from the same route of misogyny that women deal with all the time. To preven the SCR from going backwards we are going to have to start giving the TRAs an out, so they can get their attention by campaigning for something acheivable."

Well I would strongly disagree that it's misogyny - it's just male violence, which of course combined with misogyny creates MVAW, but has many other instances too: male violence against other males is just as common - that doesn't make it misogyny.

And what sort of an "out" do you have in mind? I think the problem is that if it's just campaigning for third spaces, the reason TRAs didn't do that before is because that's not what they want. They want admission to female spaces - or the activist ones do anyway.

TRAs have cried wolf wrt to 'hate crimes'. They have had campaigns urging reporting of misgendering and other micro aggressions to bump the numbers up.

The end result is that we cannot really know what was a genuine instance of bullying or aggression - which undoubtedly does happen, and yes on the basis of someone's 'gender presentation' or whatever you want to call it - or a complete nothing-burger of a person muddling pronouns.

I understand that Trans people are really worried about being "outed" in the same way that gay people were

Not sure what you mean by this: trans people are obviously 'out', that is the whole point.
How could a transwoman not be 'out'? A typically male-looking man being somehow trans inside but not changing his appearance or clothing at all? That his internal sense of gender didn't match his sex, but he hadn't done anything about it?

It's more than Keir Starmer has ever said. Unless I missed it.

so if we could redirect all that anger to campaign for something good it would help us all out alot. To start that we have to be supportive of the issues they have brought up.

Again, I disagree. WE do not need to campaign for anything for trans-identified people. They can campaign for themselves. If it takes them 20 years, then so be it. They can use mixed-sex spaces until then. Or stay home.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a threat to transwomen which comes from the same route of misogyny that women deal with all the time.

You see, this , to my mind, is where you start losing me on your posts. You seem to start out from a position of women's rights, then suddenly veer off onto some kind of TRA tangent, so, again, you'll have to excuse me if I disagree with you. "Transwomen" are not women, and therefore cannot suffer "threats" that come from "misogyny." That, to me, is a nonsensical, activist statement that stems from a misguided belief that trans-identified men are somehow a subset of women. I think you would agree that they are not. So, I'm really not sure where to put your statement.

To preven the SCR from going backwards we are going to have to start giving the TRAs an out,

Again, no. WE (meaning women) do not have to give TRAs anything. "To prevent the SCR from going backwards " all that has to happen is that the law is enforced. I'm done giving away my rights and my energy to thugs. Whatever happens now, all I care about is that the law is enforced. I will put my energy into that.

You can be glad your abuser has stopped being abusive without thanking them.

Lets just be happy about a return to reality and not dwell on the past.

I agree some of the things being said about women from TRAs are disgusting. I was fearful to speak up at work because the TWAW supporters were rabid. I am starting a new job this week and I noticed everyone has had pronouns in their signature and I don't want to put it.

They won't go down quietly though, and having access to single cubicles will benefit more people than just trans people so if we could redirect all that anger to campaign for something good it would help us all out alot. To start that we have to be supportive of the issues they have brought up.

But it's very hard to be gracious after all the enraging ridiculous TWAW nonsense in recent years that politicians like him have used to do so much damage to women and chlldren.

Indeed ! It's like expecting an abused wife to thank her husband for when he's not being abusive.

Well, then that's what they need to campaign about. Where I work we have plenty of single-sex multi-cubicle toilets and we also have several single-user toilets (with a basin etc inside) which are all labelled either men's or women's. Only the single-user toilets for people with disabilities have been labelled unisex.

The fable about being "outed" which was originally intended to force men into women's facilities is now an "own goal" which has successfully created an atmosphere where I'm afraid to ask if our single-user toilets could all be rebranded as unisex for fear of being labelled transphobic.