Should breast implants for males be made illegal?

It still shocks me the degree to which people just took leave of their senses on this topic.

Did it not occur to people that it's completely unreasonable to ...

a) agree a certain cohort of men are actually women despite all scientific facts and

b) hand over women's spaces to these men without even asking women if they consent.

Yes.

It also ultimately comes down to unthinkingly centring male people over female people while trying to deny doing that.

It happens often enough, doesn't it? The people who will never answer the questions because in doing so they have to either acknowledge that they centre male people over female people or they have to acknowledge that the solutions the feminists have suggested for at least a decade or two are appropriate but then also acknowledge that the male people are the people who are rejecting those solutions.

It also seems to come down to some posters believing misinformation to justify their position where they believe that sex is not binary, and they leverage some people's rare medical conditions as if it is some kind of relevant and scientific explanation about why a male person with a transgender identity can claim that they are in any way, a female person.

Who the fuck thinks it benefits female people to have the accurate language that describes female people start to mean the opposite to female people as well as meaning female people? Who the fuck thinks it benefits female people to have the word 'female' mean both male and female people?

Absolutely

And the men in question not giving a fuck about women’s consent

Ultimately it comes down to not wanting to say no to men.

And being happy to throw women under the bus to achieve that aim.

so, this isn't you implying that not using demanded language is disrespectful?

I read this directly as you questioning why I and others cannot be respectful and use the female language a male person demands we use for them. Maybe you didn't intend it to be judgemental, but I don't see this post above as being 'respectful' towards the people you labelled as 'GCs'.

I am beginning to believe this is another instance of 'there must be a way, you just haven't come up with it yet', or 'make everything mixed sex'.

Why do you think it's 'respectful' to pretend men can be women?

Its not respectful. It's misogynistic and scientifically illiterate

So you respect that others can use the language that they wish to and you will not say or refer to their choices as being disrespectful in any way?

What other laws is it ok to break?

So you dont believe women have any rights to single sex spaces then?

Why not?

Why do you feel men should be given access to women's things when they demand them?

Do you always privelege men over women?

How is it at all respectful for any male person to claim the usage of female language while female people are left with no language that uniquely describes their group? (That is what I call misogyny.)

What other group's philosophical belief do you, personally, act as if you believe in your language when that belief is not based in material reality?

i have not demanded anything of you. I’m merely stating how I see the world and how I choose to respect others.

How do you believe that we can achieve safeguarding for female people in the situations I mentioned up page?

How does it benefit female people to have male people take their opportunities in sports when male people are allowed to compete in female categories?

How does it benefit female people to have male prisoners included in their female prison accommodations because that male prisoner has said that they are female?

How does it benefit female people to lose the opportunity to ask for and confidently have a female health care professional when they ask for a female health care professional?

How does it benefit female people to lose the safety and dignity of a female changing room that has been sex segregated if a male person is allowed to use it too?

How does it benefit female people when a male person takes a women's officer role in a position where female people need that role to ensure that the needs of female people (not any male person) are fully considered by any decision maker?

How is it respectful to cause harm to female people to protect a group of male people?

Can you please be specific how you would safeguard female people against harm from male people while still 'protecting' and 'respecting' male people with transgender identities' demands?

I've never understood why lying about someone's sex via pronouns would be seen as a respectful act.

Why? When else do we call people what they demand without reference to the actual truth or the consequences of the lie?

My main issue with pronoun lying is that it obfuscates the language womem need to describe their situation.

So a man walks into a woman's changing room and starts undressing. Here are two different ways of describing that act

A). He walked into the changing room and took off his clothes in front of the women present (correct sex pronouns)

Or

B). She walked into the changing room and took off her clothes in front of the women present (preferred pronouns)

If you were reading these sentences in a newspaper they'd evoke a very different reaction, right?

Which one clearly conveys the safeguarding risk to women and which one confuses that in muddled language?

Language matters.

I don’t believe this is about female socialisation. It’s about basic human respect for others

I have also experienced sexual violence and trauma so I am not ignoring women’s safety. We just disagree to the ways to achieve that safety.

Ok I’ll use gender critical people. I’ve seen people who are gender critical referring themselves and others as GCs so I assumed that was ok

Until recently, the rules governing the conduct of court cases obliged a rape victim giving evidence to refer to her attacker as "she" if he identified as a woman. If not, she could be deemed in contempt of court and punished.

This requirement has now been removed because it forces a rape victim to actively deny her own lived experience of a male person committing the most male of crimes against her.

Whose dignity? His or hers?

"I see trans women as women who are they really are. They also experienced significant harm and also deserve protection."

How are male people with transgender identities based on a subjective and philosophical belief female people?

When you say 'who they really are', who are they?

That they might have experienced significant harm and also deserve protection does not mean that they are in anyway female and it does not mean that female people should have to treat those male people as if they are female people. It also doesn't mean that female people have to lose rights such as female single sex provisions because a male person has experienced hardship and harm. That is completely the antithesis of respecting female people.

How does it benefit female people to have male people take their opportunities in sports when male people are allowed to compete in female categories?

How does it benefit female people to have male prisoners included in their female prison accommodations because that male prisoner has said that they are female?

How does it benefit female people to lose the opportunity to ask for and confidently have a female health care professional when they ask for a female health care professional?

How does it benefit female people to lose the safety and dignity of a female changing room that has been sex segregated if a male person is allowed to use it too?

How does it benefit female people when a male person takes a women's officer role in a position where female people need that role to ensure that the needs of female people (not any male person) are fully considered by any decision maker?

How is it respectful to cause harm to female people to protect a group of male people?

What other vulnerable male people above the age of about 8 years old would you like to include in female single sex provisions to protect them?

"Using someone’s pronouns doesn’t harm us."

On the contrary.

There is plenty of harm individually and collectively for female people in using demanded language rather than accurate language. The use of a male person's demanded language hides their male sex category meaning that anyone who needs to know that male person's sex category does not have that information when it is important to them.

This is also very important in making sure that children understand which sex a person is so that when they report incidents to adults, they have the correct information.

There is a red flag connected to 'He came into the girl's toilets' vs 'She came into the girl's toilets'. Or 'she shared my room on the school trip' with 'he shared my room on the school trip'.

Then there are the historical activist campaigns that successfully convinced decision makers to change / create policy that harmed female people. A direct example of this is a male athlete called Rachel McKinnon / Veronica Ivy who successfully presented to sports committees (I believe he also presented to the IOC) and had sport's policy changed. He directly used the fact that people used female language for him so therefore it was cruel to exclude him from the female sport category.

There are numerous others using the same argument for different policy committees etc.

The clarity that was achieved when Naomi Cunningham used correct sex language in the case where a male doctor was using the female single sex communal changing room was significant. One of Dr Upton's own arguments was that 'everyone treated me like I was female and used female language' (my paraphrase). He also stated clearly in the case that he was 'female' as if this was a material fact.

How is it at all respectful for any male person to claim the usage of female language while female people are left with no language that uniquely describes their group? That is what I call misogyny.

By what means is any male person a female person? Please explain the process very clearly so that I and others understand how any male person can be a female person.

"It shows basic respect regardless of your wider views."

Again, what other group's philosophical belief do you, personally, act as if you believe in your language when that belief is not based in material reality?

You have decided what respect means to you, yet, you don't respect others to have a valid reason for disagreeing with you. You don't respect others to choose to believe in material reality and prioritise it while you then demand through your personal judgement of others that they prioritise what is not material reality because of your personal beliefs.

Initial thoughts yes they should be permitted to at their own expense if they choose and have had sufficient therapy that a doctor is convinced they won't regret it.

Is there a balance of cost Vs benefit where it's not ethical for doctors to do something even if the patient wants? Yes clearly, doctors aren't allowed to amputated limbs for example. Silicone breast implants are fairly low risk as plastic surgeries go I think so maybe not there. I could see a line in future being drawn at genital surgeries which have much higher risks and lower success rates.

Subsequent thought - people get spray tans or tattoos, but medications attempting to change skin colour long term are viewed with considerable distaste.

TPA My god you need help. What an absolute avalanche of hatred.
I have always called for loving support for any gender-questioning young person - telling them the truth, that they can never change their sex, and giving them all the support they need to accept who they really are - 'real' as in physical reality.

No child should be abused or threatened in any way. All children should be cherished and made feel loved and safe. We both agree about that.

Where we clearly part company is when you define as 'hatred' my belief that children deserve to be told the truth, i.e. that it is impossible to change the sex you are born with, and not to be sold falsehoods about the possibility of 'transitioning' to the opposite sex.

I'm grateful that I was loved and supported to accept my body as it is, not misled into thinking that I could ever 'transition'.

To paraphrase you, TPA, telling me that 'I need help' - thank god I got help to accept reality.

You are attributing condescension to my remarks. To me they were simply factual.

I am of the 'respect has to be earned' school of thought, I'm afraid. I would rather be right than be kind on matters of importance. Some of us escape our female socialisation.