Should breast implants for males be made illegal?

No, because they don't make a bloody nuisance of themselves mouthing off about anyone not agreeing with everything they say, and additionally telling them they are brave and beautiful, being fascists.

It's hardly the same thing - food intake vs surgery.

The former can't be controlled by the state, the latter already is. So the only question is, 'to what extent'...

Have you ever started a discussion about how people choosing to eat little enough to qualify them as anorexic should be made illegal? Maybe if you did, they would.

I have not noticed a single anorexic turning up to lecture us about how they must be treated. Maybe they don't feel entitled to tell us what we may and may not think or discuss?

Come to that, no anorexic has done that to me in real life, or demanded my acceptance or that I must agree with her about everything....

There probably are NICE guidelines for treating anorexia already though, so this campaigning would be redundant.

Why is it so terrible to examine these ideas: why people want to modify their bodies, what they hope to achieve, does it give them what they wanted, etc?

Bodily autonomy isn't unlimited in English law. It doesn't seem unreasonable to discuss and think about where the limits are and why that might be.

ETA if Liberal means we can't think about and discuss things...well that doesn't seem very liberal.

And yet there is no law telling people the minimum number of calories they must eat. Maybe you should campaign for that as well.

It's difficult to know what to say to all this. The fact that you even think your ideas about "what benefit it is" give you the right to tell another person what to do with their own body is just so contrary to the whole basis of modern liberal societies, I'm just glad people like you are in a minority.

The more I read about all this stupidity the more I get hysterical sometimes just to deal with stuff my brain can‘t deal with.
And then there is always some very dark and sarcastic stuff popping up in my head.

So here are my thoughts if men should be allowed to have breasts with a huge sarcastic influence:

Don‘t be scared if men are allowed to have breasts. You need to see the positivity in everything in life. So if men have their own breasts to play with, they don‘t need to use ours to play without out consent.
Wouldn‘t this be a big win-win for us biological women? 😜

I should add: I doubt that any of the girls who are choosing to present in the way I have described above are doing so with as much understanding of their own motivations as I have outlined. The motivations are ones that have been posited by psychologists etc.

It could be as simple as that - ie, it’s not enough to be a girl who says she is (and presents like) a boy, because everybody is ok with that now, so it’s not worth rebelling in that way.

It could also be subtly different, in that these are girls who actually want to present in a girly way, but they don’t want people to think they are doing it to conform to outside expectations of what being a girl is supposed to be.

Therefore if they claim a male identity, while dressing like a girl, they get to say that their presentation is something unusual that they have chosen to do - because ordinary boys don’t choose to dress that way - rather than what it actually is (an ordinary girl dressing like an ordinary girl: how boring and conformist).

Ah, that would explain a lot, thank you. So I guess being a plain old trans man and going your damnedest to look like a man is just so 2018, is it? No-one is shocked by it any more. Not even your great aunty or your grandad. No-one treats you with endless fascination and all the attention has waned. So we need to move on to the next thing that will bewilder and enrage people who simply aren't cool enough to understand. We'll insist we are a man on the inside, while performatively rejecting masculinity and still presenting as a woman. A sort of double-reverse gotcha to keep the oldsters scratching their heads. Perfect. 😂

Like this?

My sainted Ma used to say "yes yes, I know, you are all of you expressing your individuality by wearing jeans and looking just the same."

@cookbookjunkie, there appears to be a recent trend of trans-identifying girls calling themselves boys, while continuing to present in an extremely feminine way (think push-up bras, tiny skirts, huge false eyelashes and nails, etc).

The thinking (by psychologists/sociologists) seems to be that if these girls say they are boys while dressing this way, then the fact that they are dressing this way is a seen as a choice. This is to contrast or put distance between themselves and those girls who say they are girls and who dress this way, who are clearly only doing so to conform to what society expects a girl to be.

Basically it’s a way of saying “I’m not like the other girls - they do this because they are sheep, I do this because I choose it.”

I think it’s been going on much longer than that, but yes. Every argument we put out there is eventually parroted back at us, even though it usually doesn’t apply. When you have no valid argument, eternal loops of nonsense, word salad, DARVO and aggression have to suffice.

I don’t think it’s worth making breast implants for men illegal, but I hope it will return to being socially unacceptable for men to dress up as women again, and I do want to return to a full understanding within society that any man determined to invade women’s spaces is a pervert or predator or both.

With those things in place, the uptake for that kind of surgery will drop away naturally.

So your daughter decided to identify as a man but says they are a gay man? They reject masculine stereotypes, they present as androgynous (so that would usually mean neither obviously or consistently male or female, either as sexless as possible, or borrowing a bit from both.)

However, they often wear stereotypically feminine clothing and make up, which is pretty much the case for the majority of women. Very few of us only ever wear skirts, dresses and make up. We all have our trousers and bare faced days.

As for identifying themselves as NGC, well that also goes for many gay men and lesbians. Also quite a few straight people. In their case they may appear to conform to a gender that aligns with their biological sex to most observers, but they don't identify as 'gender conforming' because they reject gender as a concept altogether.

So in what particular ways is your child not just a straight woman or girl, except in the way they choose to label themselves? What part of your child makes them identify is a man? What does being a man mean to them and how does it manifest itself in them?

Because clearly it doesn't mean being sexually attracted to women if they say they are 'gay'. It doesn't mean only dressing stereotypically as a man and rejecting women's clothing and make-up. It doesn't mean identifying with 'aggressive' or macho manliness. So what does it mean?

And are they autistic?

I was actually stunned by that comparison. As a fellow rape survivor, I was deeply disturbed that anyone would say such a thing.

I view this the same way I view I extreme cosmetic procedures to make someone look like furry. I don’t think anyone should do it, but I also don’t think it should be illegal. I think there should be policies in place to discourage it, such as a very long statute of limitations for being able to sue.

ASI said. I appreciate your opinion.

And I appreciate yours, however, can you please consider that when arguing rationally for this law to be enforced the use of hyperbole that conflates a man using the women’s toilet with rape by stealthing is more harmful than helpful for making this law stick? It invites further criticism of our position as based in paranoia.

I appreciate that is your opinion.

Im not saying it should not be a criminal offence, I think it should be. I just object to it being compared to rape by stealthing. It’s not even in the same league of criminal offences. One carries a prison term, the other should be an on the spot fine.

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to your opinion.

I disagree.

i firmly believe it should be a criminal offence for anyone to enter the single sex spaces of the sex other then that which they were born using deceit.

men need to obey the law and I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for them to do this.

Stealthing is a form of rape.

I still, like the other poster, object to you saying a man in the women’s loo that you didn’t even notice is analogous to rape by stealthing.

I see you had my comment deleted. Sorry for being blunt. I’m a rape survivor too so perhaps that is why I am shocked you would minimise rape in such a way.

You are the only rape victim I have ever known who would seriously state that rape by stealthing is in any way comparable to a man being in the women’s toilets without you even being aware of it.

Analagous means the two things are similar to each other.

They aren’t even remotely similar.

I am sorry you had a PTSD flashback in the toilets. I too have PTSD.

One, I recently had was just sitting in a restaurant and for some reason the mixture of the noise of people and the way the light fell on a man entering out the side of my vision,it triggered flashbacks to when I was in a different restaurant and a man with a shot gun came in and started shooting people. I literally abandoned my food and ran out of the restaurant through the kitchen in the back in a blind panic.

But I would never compare the risk of me having a flashback to risk of the actual trauma itself.

By the way. What the fuck is “self proclaimed” rape victim all about?

I never said it was. I said à man entering a women’s space where he shouldn’t be because he believes he passes is analogous to stealthing. I firmly believe it should be a criminal offence.

I’ve had an experience in a loo where I was left in EXTREME distress having multiple flashbacks that didn’t stop. I can’t describe what happened itll be deleted by mnhq.

all of which would be avoided if men used the toilets they’re meant to.