Labour’s trans guidance ‘poses danger to women’

What's wrong with being outed? Do TRAs feel that being trans is something to be ashamed of, something to be concealed?

The point is moot anyway. The EHRC does not have the remit to change GDPR.

This

Quite often TRAs are arguing for the merging of trans people with the sex they identify with. Which amounts to erasure of the trans community.

Not the topic if the thread I know but I've always found interesting that the recent, most vociferous wave of trans activism decided not to campaign for trans-specific services and spaces.

FFS sex is pretty much the most common data field to hold apart from your name and address. If it was intended to be special category, data protection law would say so up front not via some twisty back alley reasoning.

"What appears to be being asserted is that because trans status is special category data, that sex must be treated as special category data too or else else trans status would be revealed."

But it doesn't necessarily follow that the reason someone's sex does not match their dress / behaviour is because they are trans. They could simply be gender non-conforming. Or a myriad of other reasons.

Therefore it is not a reason why sex should be treated as special category data.

But you would only know their sex and what they looked like. There are some men who identify as men who have long hair and makeup and look very feminine. So you wouldn't know if the individual in front of you was a trans woman or a feminine styled man, or non-binary etc.

That's the point. You don't know & they potentially could be trans.

Otherwise asking the preferred pronouns of someone who was clearly biologically male or female would definitely 'out' their gender id.

It certainly has the potential to out them that's why people shouldn't be asked & they can volunteer them if they want to.

but it's not what's under discussion in the article.

It's exactly what's under discussion in the article.

How does admitting what sex they are say anything about their philosophical beliefs?

Is "I'm male but I like to wear dresses" now a philosophical belief which should be hidden from the rest of the world, when the man in question is quite obviously male and wearing a dress?

We all live in a society where our right to live according to our own personal preferences and beliefs have to be balanced with the right of other people to also live according to their beliefs and for them not to be deceived.

Your posts indicate that you appear to believe that people who identify as trans should have special rights not accorded to others, and that they should also be free to impose their beliefs on others.

To be fair, Emily has just eliminated transphobia and made trans services unworkable in one fell swoop.

Nope. Let’s assume we’re in a world where people can’t really tell other people’s sex. A male, who appears (ETA at first glance) to be female, enters a female only space. They are asked their sex. They confirm they are male. They have outed themselves as nothing more than a man who doesn’t respect women’s boundaries. No one has any idea what ‘belief’ has led them to ‘appear female’. They could just be a very ‘feminine looking’ man. Or are you saying it is only ever trans people who would be in the position of violating women’s boundaries like this?

So again @EmilyinEverton if providers are not allowed to record trans status, how can services for trans people be provided. How can someone claim “transphobia” if they have not declared they are trans? That gives the provider the perfect out to say “I didn’t know they were trans so I can’t have been transphobic”.

TERF deep cover double agent Emily doing Stirling work as always in allowing us to set out all the reasons why they're wrong - and in such detail!

keep up the good work agent Emily

How would anyone know that they "present as female"?

People either are or aren't female. How they "present" is irrelevant to their sex. Just at it would be for their age:

I could "present" as a child by wearing a school uniform or as an old lady, like Caroline Aherne did as Mrs Merton. If I tried to go in somewhere based on how I was "presenting" (e.g. if I tried to pay a lower ticket price to enter a place that offered child/pensioner prices) I would expect to be challenged. I don't need to out myself on whether I actually believe I'm a child/pensioner.

But you would only know their sex and what they looked like. There are some men who identify as men who have long hair and makeup and look very feminine. So you wouldn't know if the individual in front of you was a trans woman or a feminine styled man, or non-binary etc. Otherwise asking the preferred pronouns of someone who was clearly biologically male or female would definitely 'out' their gender id.

Yeah but intentions aren't relevant. It's the outcome of potentially outing philosophical beliefs that does.

Actual letter

Sex Matters

NEW: We have written to the Minister for Women and Equalities Bridget Phillipson, calling on her to withdraw the “asking about sex” section of the EHRC code of practice for service providers because it is legally wrong.

https://x.com/SexMattersOrg/status/2058965883372847133/photo/1

Blog on the guidance:
https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/sex-is-not-special-category-data/

But surely if no one is allowed to record if anyone is trans, then services for trans people will not happen? Services will just say there is no need as no trans people are requiring them.

Good lord, now @EmilyinEverton is trying to tell us Trans is a philosophical belief. I was under the impression it was Reality, uncontested fact, lived experience, and the very nature of our existence. But give Emily a sniff* of a different method by which to obtain access to womens spaces, and suddenly a belief in gender ideology is a protected philosophical belief (so, not fact?) that must be protected by not asking about sex lest we reveal something about something our eyes would not otherwise be able to tell us 🙄

But the individual asking won't know if the person they are asking is trans or not. All they will suspect is they are not the sex aligned with the particular space they are attempting to enter. I am asking if seeking confirmation on ones sex is asking for personal data.

"possibly puts the patron in a position of revealing they are trans"

There could be other reasons that the person is in the in incorrect sex facility - it doesn't necessarily mean that they consider themselves trans, and thus it doesn't "out them".

Very very few trans-identified males are being forcibly outed by having to declare their sex. People have eyes and ears.

An individual who presents as female but is in fact trans is being forcibly outed by admitting their sex….& by extension their philosophical beliefs.

Nobody needs to declare themselves to be trans in this situation. They simply need to be truthful about their sex.

What they are wearing, how they "present" and whether they believe themselves to have a gender identity are their own business. They don't need to explain their thoughts on this to anyone.

The context is if a trans person is queried by a provider because they fill be forced to reveal their philosophical beliefs.