How do you handle gender identity disagreements within a long-standing social group?

In a similar situation, I kept my GC views to myself but asked the petson (auntie of a MtF young adult) if they ( parents and yhe lad himself) hsd looked into the long-term health effects of cross hormones. Pointed out that there are lotsof young men these days having to use zimmer frames because of osteoporeosis.

In other words, left my opinion out of it, but gently brought up the question of the side effects.

It's harmed some of my friendships. I don't generally talk about it but if the subject comes up I will make my opinions known.

I have friends involved in gender services who are fully signed up to affirmative (drastic) care and others who parent children with gender dysphoria alongside other mental health difficulties.

A couple of these are bio-realists which causes conflict with their teens and others fully affirm unquestioningly because in essence they have been scared that if they don't their kids will kill themselves.

Ironically the TERF-ern parented gender confused kids are both close to me. I respect their choice of names, but not pronouns and push back on serious body modification/ breast binding etc....

I had a fairly robust conversation at christmas with one of them about how to define womanhood. They brought the topic up and I did check if this really was an avenue of conversation to explore as I knew we were going to disagree. By his definitions (mostly appearance based) he is a woman and neither his mum or I are. Go figure. We are still friends and have actually been texting this morning.

With the die hard TWAW brigade I generally don't talk about these issues as I know they won't budge their opinion. My opinion alone has damaged some relationships. The only person I've engaged in extended debate influences central NHS policy and I did this as she has the potential to cause real harm to patients by allowing mixed sex clinical care areas. However, my doing so has really damaged our relationship and I don't think it will ever recover.

I do talk more to "be kind" friends who haven't been exposed to any GC facts or really thought about it beyond mainstream news. In my experience actual facts and challenges to ideas such as "most vulnerable group in society" help to crystallise thinking and several are now quietly GC. None join me in activism though.

I have experienced this close at hand when a longstanding close friend of my DH cut him off when she was transing one of her children and asked him outright if he'd support her and accept her child as the opposite sex and, thinking that an obviously groomed parent could still be reasoned with, he recommended watchful waiting rather than puberty blockers.

I don't make any secret of where I stand but also recognise that I'm not going to help by getting into conflict in U3A knitting groups or whatever and should direct my energy towards supporting people who have platforms.

“Dear”

shudder

That's nice, dear. Good for you.

Ok your friendships could be destroyed by a disagreement over such issues

My close friendships wouldn’t be. Thirty years of support and love upended by a disagreement over a discussion? Nope

I would entirely disagree with that. Good friendships can be undermined by this ideology as much as any other, such is its perniciousness. The fear of being 'cancelled' or seen not to be progressive/kind/an ally - never mind the effect on your job or other friendships if you're seen to have the wrong opinions or even associated with someone who has the wrong opinions - looms long.

It's just so heartbreaking that we live in a world where friendships and even cordial acquaintances are made or broken based on single issues and politics

only very superficial friendships

Agree with this.

As you point out it's the genderists bringing the subject up - they're the ones being rude. They are breaking what used to be the rules of social discourse. And they fully expect no pushback even though their stance does not stand up to even the slightest logical scrutiny or consideration of the evidence.

Part of the reason this Emperor's New Clothes delusion has got so far is because only one side are allowed to speak up and express a political opinion about it in polite society and it's a reinforcing effect. So people who bring it up think no-one objects and everyone who does is some kind of knuckle dragging Reform voting dimwit (when in fact the people who object are far better informed - the evidence only points one way).

If everyone agreed not to mention controversial topics then fine, but when other people are bringing up what essentially amounts to 'that naked bloke has invisible clothes on and JKR deserves rape and death threats because she says she can see his knob' then it's more tricky.

I have spoken up - I've defended JKR by questioning people who've claimed she's a bigot 'have you read what she actually wrote - not what people say about what she wrote? I have. I saw nothing bigoted there.' and then possibly later on ' Did you know how many millions she gives to charities for women and children? Have you seen what her charity Lumos does?' Etc. I try and push back relatively gently on specifically what they've said.

It is more difficult when it's a child, but you can do it. Are you concerned about the side effects of the drugs (if they're medically transitioning or considering it)? Are you sure your doctor is on top of that? I've heard there's not much data on the long-term impacts?

Sometimes just a 'not everyone agrees with this position so maybe it's better not to talk about divisive political issues in this group.....' which is essentially just pointing out that the genderists have broken the unspoken social rule about politics.

These threads make me ever more grateful for my social groups and friendship circles.

This is never raised. Never discussed. Not avoided. Just so much other things to chat and discuss about that something like this? Nah. Life too short and busy when you have the joy of getting together with friends to chat about shit like this. Added to which… time with friends is precious once we have families / jobs / responsibilities - I don’t want fraught debates. Not that they would be I suspect with my friends

That’s not fair, I didn’t do that, I don’t need your reminder. Obviously many people with GC views are not parents. My point was made in the context of the OP saying that the other parents in her example were seemingly supportive of child transition and I was attempting to say that might not actually be the case using an anecdote from my own experience.

It is very difficult to manage and in the case of relationships or situations which matter to you, let it go. It's not worth the fall out and there's really nothing you can do to change anyone's mind if they're deep enough into gender ideology that they'd end a friendship or stop you participating in a group over it.

A good five or six years ago I lost some friends, I suspect at least partially over my gender critical views. I didn't really care because it had become apparent that there were 'correct' views in this group and I was fed up of treading on eggshells. But I have other friendships which matter a lot to me, we have differing views on gender so we just don't go there. It's a shame because we've always been able to talk about everything but it's just a safely fenced off conversational quicksand these days.

I did find myself very nearly ostracised out of another group for the sin of a comment about humans not changing sex, where there was a lot of whispering behind backs and comments made about what an awful person I was. It was immensely upsetting so I keep my head down on this front now because I don't want that to happen again and the group overall is important to me.

If I'm asked an opinion I would offer a neutral statement that I'm gender critical, I don't think humans change sex, there's only two sexes and women's sex-based rights are important. Then we can either leave it there or discuss further if I feel they're interested or want to talk in good faith/with respect. Otherwise I just say that I've stated my views and it's best we leave it there.

Sometimes making a point is just not worth the hurt it will cause.

I refuse to lie. I am polite, but firm. I cite evidence, particularly around 'affirmative' care, the parallels with eating disorders and the fact that it is grounded in outdated gender stereotypes.
Sometimes I add that Catholics believe the wafer and wine are transformed into the body and blood of Christ. I do not. I will however respect their religious belief, so long as they respect my belief in biological reality.

Agree. A very old and once close friend of mine from uni now has a TiM son. We live at opposite ends of the country now and see each other very rarely. I murmured a few things about women’s toilets but generally steered clear.

I think that’s the crux of it. You never know how you’re going to feel unless it’s your children/family in that situation. People are generally very protective of their children, even if their lives don’t align with their own view points.

Speaking up unasked when the subject is an aquaintance's troubled teen and the context is a social situation is never going to change anyone's mind. It's more useful to talk about the subject in less heated contexts so other women with sex realist views know they're not the only ones.

From the couple of mothers I know who's children have got involved in this route, there were complex issues with learning disabilities/ serious bullying/ neurodivergence plus psychological abuse from sexist, unpredictable and homophobic male role model issues in the background. An aquaintance "speaking up" without knowing all that might actually have made her argument look less valid than they are because of being tone deaf to the slow motion car crash.

You would start arguing / debating with a parent about their child? No, I wouldn’t.

Added to which , an absolute waste of breath

I have had a very robust discussion with my oldest friend group which got fairly heated. Interestingly on that occasion there was a clear divide between those of us who had children and those who didn’t with the parents saying it’s really worrying, we can’t just be kind.

just a reminder that there are many child free / childless women on here who have been campaigning on this issue for a long time and also that some of the biggest TRA cheerleaders have been parents eg susie green, jolyman maughan, Joanne Harris . Can we not make this a parents v non parents please

My discussion with her took place away from the group. We bumped into each other on the street, she’d seen a comment I made on twitter responding to Alistair Campbell waffling on about ‘be kind’ to trans women and giving them access to female prisons and other spaces and challenged me on it.

Despite what the trans lobby would have us believe, the issue of neurodivergent teenage girls feeling uncomfortable in their changing bodies, and relentlessly exposed to sexist gender norms is not the same as fetishistic middle-aged men transitioning to whatever their warped idea of female is 🙄 for their own gratification. So we didn’t actually talk about her child at all. I stated my views (that single sex female spaces are the hill i would die on), she waved her ‘be kind’ jazz hands at me and we parted on good terms. She knows I support her, even if we don’t agree on everything.

I’d Speak out against cry it out too, if I felt that strongly about it.

It's not fear, it's basic civility.

If someone said "I'd really rather not hear about your unhappy teenager" then that's bloody rude regardless of the source of the unhappiness.

There's a time and place to campaign, a friendship circle isn't one of them. Even if you're right, it's rude to foist your opinions on other people, unasked for.

Why are we so frightened of speaking up?

These idiots exist in a vacuum of be kind
They really should be told that humans can not change sex and that you'd rather not hear about how they are dealing with an unhappy teen-ager.

I guess I'm just fearful that sympathy and silence is effectively encouraging this and means that more children (& families) get sucked in?

you have a very high regard for your opinion

Commonplace on mumsnet

I agree

Your silence does not make you complicit in the harm of a child.

teens in particular can develop all kinds of mental health issues including anorexia, bulimia, ocd, anxiety and depression.

telling the mum of a teen with a MH issue like anorexia exactly how you would deal with it and your thoughts on anorexia is rude.

in the same way a mum who has a teen who believes they are trans is going through a very tough time.

it’s not possible to get surgery or puberty blockers in the U.K. for under 18s anymore so the teen is unlikely to be able to access affirming care.

and frankly many teens do considerably more self harm through cutting and suicide attempts

i’d feel very sorry for the poor mum. She’s in a very tricky place.

you don’t need to go shooting your mouth off any more thsn of her kid was cutting herself.