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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any recommended genderist writers?

235 replies

bonfireoftheverities · 24/05/2026 18:14

"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - John Stuart Mill

This is something I've tried to keep in mind over the last half dozen or so years since I heard TWAW, thought "What?" and fairly quickly found FWR. So I've made sure to read as much as I can take from those who truly believe that men can be women, or if they don't actually believe it (because how can you, deep down?), desperately want it to be true. I say as much as I can take because after a while you've seen and heard it all before, and it never starts being convincing.

The latest pile of nonsense I dove into is this: The End of Trans Rights in the UK Is the Start of Democratic Collapse. Dear god, that almost made my brain melt. The links alone show you that he never strays outside an idiotic bubble (Helen Webberley being the first I clicked into).

Is there anyone you can recommend who makes their case without lying and relying on liars?

OP posts:
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Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:42

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:36

Omg …

The context is what an individual personally values more in order to define themselves as in their sex or gender.

Has anyone told the women in Afghanistan all they need to do is claim that they are really men and they’ll have full freedom again? @EmilyinEverton do you believe they are being oppressed because of their sex or their gender? How do the Taliban know which people to oppress?

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:40

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:36

Omg …

The context is what an individual personally values more in order to define themselves as in their sex or gender.

People can define themselves how they choose. No one else has to go along with them. A man can call himself a pansexual demi greyboi for all none cares. He’s still a male so uses male spaces.

nicepotoftea · 25/05/2026 10:38

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:32

So again, you’re claiming someone is men or woman depending on how strictly they adhere to regressive sexist stereotypes? How is sex a value based system?

Again, stereotypes & typical behaviours are two very different things. And I'm not claiming they are a man or woman its upto their values of whether sex or gender defines them more personally. Your values clearly consider sex to be a defining identity characteristic others don't.

So who decided these behaviours are “typical”
Noone decides they are typical by virtue of being the most expressed by an overwhelming majority. That's what typical means 'usually'.

"What gendered behaviours are “typical” for women then that would determine if someone is seen as a woman or not?"

The most common choices women make in terms of consumerism, employment, special interest & life choices are examples. You can google them yourself if they aren't obvious to you.

An individuals being an individual vary on what particular inclinations they have in common with women that would make them identify as one so I couldn't speak for all of them.

Your values clearly consider sex to be a defining identity characteristic others don't.

How truly privileged to regard sex as simply an 'identity' characteristic and to have no concern for the material consequences.

As though one could for instance identify out of an unwanted pregnancy by claiming a different gender.

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:36

nicepotoftea · 25/05/2026 10:19

Sex is not a value based system.

It's a system to classify reproductive class across species based on scientific understanding.

Sex has consequences for male and female mammals, so in a limited number of situations we provide sex specific services.

We never provide gender specific services because there is no need.

Omg …

The context is what an individual personally values more in order to define themselves as in their sex or gender.

EmpressaurusKitty · 25/05/2026 10:35

If you’re saying that we should accept men in our spaces depending on their values & life choices, that’s ridiculous. Although I can accept that forcing their presence on women without our consent can count as a male life choice.

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:35

So you’re saying gender is a load of regressive bollocks that has no meaning, and tries to label people so we stick to sex. Awesome. I agree.

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:32

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:16

So again, you’re claiming someone is men or woman depending on how strictly they adhere to regressive sexist stereotypes? How is sex a value based system? So who decided these behaviours are “typical”? If enough people do not adhere to them, surely that makes them “atypical”? What gendered behaviours are “typical” for women then that would determine if someone is seen as a woman or not?

So again, you’re claiming someone is men or woman depending on how strictly they adhere to regressive sexist stereotypes? How is sex a value based system?

Again, stereotypes & typical behaviours are two very different things. And I'm not claiming they are a man or woman its upto their values of whether sex or gender defines them more personally. Your values clearly consider sex to be a defining identity characteristic others don't.

So who decided these behaviours are “typical”
Noone decides they are typical by virtue of being the most expressed by an overwhelming majority. That's what typical means 'usually'.

"What gendered behaviours are “typical” for women then that would determine if someone is seen as a woman or not?"

The most common choices women make in terms of consumerism, employment, special interest & life choices are examples. You can google them yourself if they aren't obvious to you.

An individuals being an individual vary on what particular inclinations they have in common with women that would make them identify as one so I couldn't speak for all of them.

nicepotoftea · 25/05/2026 10:31

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:22

I’m also concerned that Emily seems to only have gender stereotypes for men and women? What about the demi greybois? Or the Quoigender? What are the gender stereotypes for those @EmilyinEverton ?

Yes. Won't somebody think of the other genders?

nicepotoftea · 25/05/2026 10:28

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:17

Research on gendered choices is usually conducted in most egalitarian countries like Sweden to allow for more organic gendered inclinations to be measured which interestingly show even bigger differences than those with less freedom.

But logically all you would be able to demonstrate is that some traits are more common in women. You would not be demonstrating that people with those traits are women.

You could theorise that female mammals have evolved a drive to keep their young alive and male mammals have evolved to have as much sex as possible, but you wouldn't then suggest that a man who cares for his children is a woman.

(and completely anecdotally, many trans widows report that their husbands prioritise their sex lives over the well being of their children, which using this theory would class them squarely as men...)

BackToLurk · 25/05/2026 10:24

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:17

Research on gendered choices is usually conducted in most egalitarian countries like Sweden to allow for more organic gendered inclinations to be measured which interestingly show even bigger differences than those with less freedom.

What have ‘gendered choices’ to do with this? Oh, right, being trans is a choice. Thanks for clarifying.

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:22

nicepotoftea · 25/05/2026 10:19

Sex is not a value based system.

It's a system to classify reproductive class across species based on scientific understanding.

Sex has consequences for male and female mammals, so in a limited number of situations we provide sex specific services.

We never provide gender specific services because there is no need.

I’m also concerned that Emily seems to only have gender stereotypes for men and women? What about the demi greybois? Or the Quoigender? What are the gender stereotypes for those @EmilyinEverton ?

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:19

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:17

Research on gendered choices is usually conducted in most egalitarian countries like Sweden to allow for more organic gendered inclinations to be measured which interestingly show even bigger differences than those with less freedom.

AI is so cool isn’t it. When you have no argument, reach for AI and let the word salad commence. But as you’ve said no one can determine who is a man or a woman, how can you be sure those results are correct?

nicepotoftea · 25/05/2026 10:19

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:12

Um, typical behaviours aren't expectations they are simply the most common behaviours to a particular sex so they are hardly rejected by everyone else.

So they can use the gender neutral, single sex spaces designated for their sex can’t they?

Like I said sex & gender are ultimately values based systems so one doesn't necessarily trump the other. Different countries globally have differing policies so there's no objectively correct action.

Sex is not a value based system.

It's a system to classify reproductive class across species based on scientific understanding.

Sex has consequences for male and female mammals, so in a limited number of situations we provide sex specific services.

We never provide gender specific services because there is no need.

PercyPigsAreOverRated · 25/05/2026 10:18

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:12

I think I might just identify as a tradwife and tell DH he’s now responsible for the money 😁

Do it, and I'll live vicariously through you. As my husband is imaginary I can't make him pay any bills. Unless invisible man that he is Grin

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:17

nicepotoftea · 25/05/2026 10:12

To be fair, I am quite happy to agree that the thing that makes me female is my reproductive system. The rest of me is just plain old human.

Yes but Emily is not talking about sex. Emily is stating that only adherence to sexist stereotypes determines whether someone is a woman or not and therefore allowed into female spaces.

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:17

BackToLurk · 25/05/2026 10:09

‘Typical’ behaviours are only ‘typical’ within specific cultural, geographical and/or historical contexts. That suggests someone’s transness is dependent on when and where they were born. Unlike their sex.

Research on gendered choices is usually conducted in most egalitarian countries like Sweden to allow for more organic gendered inclinations to be measured which interestingly show even bigger differences than those with less freedom.

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:16

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:12

Um, typical behaviours aren't expectations they are simply the most common behaviours to a particular sex so they are hardly rejected by everyone else.

So they can use the gender neutral, single sex spaces designated for their sex can’t they?

Like I said sex & gender are ultimately values based systems so one doesn't necessarily trump the other. Different countries globally have differing policies so there's no objectively correct action.

So again, you’re claiming someone is men or woman depending on how strictly they adhere to regressive sexist stereotypes? How is sex a value based system? So who decided these behaviours are “typical”? If enough people do not adhere to them, surely that makes them “atypical”? What gendered behaviours are “typical” for women then that would determine if someone is seen as a woman or not?

EmpressaurusKitty · 25/05/2026 10:13

a butch reproductive female may consider her reproductive traits a defining characteristic & identify as a cis woman or they may consider themselves a trans man because gender is their defining characteristic.

Or she may consider that the term cis & the concept of gender overall, whether referring to expectations or associations, are linked to sexist stereotypes which the world would be better off without.

I seem to remember India Willoughby claiming that he hadn’t just changed sex but had grown a cervix. And claiming to be genuinely not understand why JK Rowling invited GNC lesbians to lunch but didn’t invite him. Even though he wore dresses &makeup.

nicepotoftea · 25/05/2026 10:12

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:10

Ewwwww that is the grossest, most sexist thing I’ve ever heard. REPRODUCTIVE FEMALE!!!! Did you mean to be so offensive? That is the most misogynistic thing the TRA has ever said. Reducing women to the ur reproductive organs? Wow!

To be fair, I am quite happy to agree that the thing that makes me female is my reproductive system. The rest of me is just plain old human.

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:12

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 09:54

So transpeople are basing their identity on sexist regressive stereotypes rejected by everyone else? That still does not make them anything but GNC members of their sex does it? And therefore, as they are not members of the opposite sex, they do not belong in the spaces designated for the sex class to which they do not belong. You said sex and gender were different. So they can use the gender neutral, single sex spaces designated for their sex can’t they?

Um, typical behaviours aren't expectations they are simply the most common behaviours to a particular sex so they are hardly rejected by everyone else.

So they can use the gender neutral, single sex spaces designated for their sex can’t they?

Like I said sex & gender are ultimately values based systems so one doesn't necessarily trump the other. Different countries globally have differing policies so there's no objectively correct action.

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:12

PercyPigsAreOverRated · 25/05/2026 10:11

TBH I'm so worn down by having been the only parent for so long, and having to make all the decisions, and worry about how I'm going to pay all the bills, and what I do when the DC are ill, that being a trad wife for a few days might be quite nice.

Only a few days mind you, I'm not very good at behaving myself either. But the break does sound tempting.

I think I might just identify as a tradwife and tell DH he’s now responsible for the money 😁

nicepotoftea · 25/05/2026 10:11

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:06

Because that's where self identification matters. What an individual identifies with more in terms of sex or gender can vary. IE a butch reproductive female may consider her reproductive traits a defining characteristic & identify as a cis woman or they may consider themselves a trans man because gender is their defining characteristic. Ultimately personal identity is a values based system.

This might surprise you, but many, many women do not spend any time thinking about whether they identify with feminine stereotypes. They just wear what they want to wear and do what they want to do.

PercyPigsAreOverRated · 25/05/2026 10:11

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:05

Apparently so! I’m sobbing into my coffee here. My life is meaningless now.

TBH I'm so worn down by having been the only parent for so long, and having to make all the decisions, and worry about how I'm going to pay all the bills, and what I do when the DC are ill, that being a trad wife for a few days might be quite nice.

Only a few days mind you, I'm not very good at behaving myself either. But the break does sound tempting.

Wearenotborg · 25/05/2026 10:10

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 10:06

Because that's where self identification matters. What an individual identifies with more in terms of sex or gender can vary. IE a butch reproductive female may consider her reproductive traits a defining characteristic & identify as a cis woman or they may consider themselves a trans man because gender is their defining characteristic. Ultimately personal identity is a values based system.

Ewwwww that is the grossest, most sexist thing I’ve ever heard. REPRODUCTIVE FEMALE!!!! Did you mean to be so offensive? That is the most misogynistic thing the TRA has ever said. Reducing women to the ur reproductive organs? Wow!

BackToLurk · 25/05/2026 10:09

EmilyinEverton · 25/05/2026 09:34

That's ironically stereotypical….& particularly convenient for those who feel 'challenged' by expressions of typical gender associations. It's interesting that those who seem most bothered by typical behaviours are those that don't express them ….some would say thats rooted in an insecurity complex.

The fact of the matter is typical behaviours are typical because most people are inclined towards them that's proven in consumerist, employment, life & special interest choices.

For people who like to pontificate about the delusions of others they sure do like to delude themselves about the obvious differences in gendered behaviour performed by most around the globe.

‘Typical’ behaviours are only ‘typical’ within specific cultural, geographical and/or historical contexts. That suggests someone’s transness is dependent on when and where they were born. Unlike their sex.

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