Friend shocks me by suddenly saying he's female. How to handle this?

So the solution is to make womens ' facilities less safe? Gee thanks

Clothes

No, this is a problem for all women faced with being expected to go along with a man's fetish that is insulting and misogynist.

And unfortunately many women are happy to enable that, and also expect other women to do so.

Or rather he just didn't care, women are just "emotional support animals" to most men, only useful when they want something.

Frankly i would run a mile, he would be dead to me, but then I've been abused by one of these blokes in a frock, i have zero tolerance of this nonsense /fetish which is about mocking women, punching down on us, taking away our rights to privacy, safety and dignity. No man who attempts this con trick can be a friend to women, t's so plainly misogynist. I had to walk away from a job because of this nightmare, but i don't regret it, my safety matters to me. I won't be around men who think it's ok to treat women this way.

Re the “how would we ever police this?” arguments, Victoria Smith has series of X posts where she says that these were the same arguments made when marital and date rape were being considered for criminalisation:

Victoria Smith@glosswitch
38m
A really significant moment for me as a young feminist was realising I'd grown up in a country where it was legal for men to rape their wives. I was 16 when making it illegal was being "debated"

Arguments in favour of doing nothing were very similar to ones against taking date rape seriously. How would you prove it? Wouldn't measures taken to prove it spoil relationships? What do you want, contracts, cameras everywhere?

The same tactics are being deployed against women having spaces of their own. How will you prove it? What do you want, genital inspections? We know that often we can't prove the things men did to us in a way that would lead anywhere. >

It still matters to have a standard that men are expected to adhere to. It's remarkable how many men want us to think they wouldn't transgress but are passionate in their desire for it not to be illegal to do so.

I resist using "hysterical" usually, too. I don't think your views are hysterical, though. I also think that suggesting someone's views on this topic are (especially when the posters is describing - or is empathising with someone else's - genuine fears) is inappropriate and unfeeling. We see it a lot here. I actually tried to use "hysterical" rather differently, in a way I did feel was apt and justified. I apologise for this not having been clear, though! I try to explain, below.

I was trying to highlight that I feel at one of your arguments supporting your views was something of an inappropriate and unfeeling rhetorical ploy, in its using "hysterical" images of a dystopian future of "sex policing".

You write:

• Do we need to submit our bodies for inspection?
• Do we give away our freedoms to the patriarchy for the "safety" of a self-imposed segregation because we've given up on actually stopping violence?
• Should we all be put away in a harem to "protect" us?
• Do we need to perform extreme femininity to ensure it's never questioned?

I don't believe that you believe that these are actual possibilities, let alone necessities, for a second, Little.

I do think they're an overly used trope that seeks to dismiss women's legitimate concerns by playing on their experiences of and fears relating to sexist and abuse, and the abuses of human rights women have experienced historically, and continue to in countries across the world.

As such, I find these hypotheses as both absurd, in this context, and actually somewhat offensive (as I do the use DSDs, gay rights and racism we also see) - "depressing", you might say yourself - in the context of this debate.

I used "hysterical" to indicate this. It doesn't apply to your views, but seeks to satirise - ridicule - a particularly cynical approach which I actually find quite distasteful.

A subtle distinction, I know - I did hesitate before using it as, like you, I usually modulate my own tone very (too?!) carefully here.

Your own courtesy is genuinely noted and appreciated. It's very unusual here.

If you feel everyone is safe, then you can’t use safety as an argument for some men being able to use women’s facilities @LittleMyLabyrinth an argument that they should use the ladies because some women say women aren’t safe from men even though you believe everyone is safe makes no sense at all.

Statistically (and we have all the stats go read the ‘Break it down for me’ thread) transwomen do not behave like women, they behave like the men they are

• there are significantly more sexual assaults by men on women in mixed sex toilets and changing rooms
• in the UK there have been more transwomen murderers than transwomen murdered
• in the prison population transwomen are significantly more likely to have been convicted for sexual offences against women and children than the general male prison population
• transwomen retain male patters of violence, they don’t suddenly become safer

Women are not always safe in toilets with transwomen, we have many cases that show where women and children weren’t safe and no proven cases where transwomen have been attacked using male toilets.

Please stay, read and debate in good faith and logically. As PP have said real life dilemma threads asking for advice are not the place for that but there are plenty of other threads that are for debate.

However we do expect vague assertions to be backed up with facts, we expect other posters questions about your assertions to be responded to (and not with a word salad designed to distract from the lack of response) and we expect logical arguments so you will need to improve your debating skills.

If you read TRA Reddit there are so many of these men, many of them don’t even seem to be “out” to friends and family, they’re just living out their fantasy online.

He sounds like he’s having some sort of mid life crisis. Life not working out I’ll have a go at be a woman now. I distinctly remember some middle aged man being pretty honest about the fact that he wanted to be a TW because it seemed more fun than being a man. He obviously had no idea how offensive that sounded.

Another aspect of this is how casually these men think they are “trans”. It’s so easy for a man to just put some eyeliner on and announce on social media that he is a woman now, like the OP’s acquaintance. It isn’t any less ridiculous but people are just accepted to swallow it.

It’s because your breezy dismissal of women’s sex based rights in order to benefit males shows a lack of empathy on your part that people have an issue on this thread, @LittleMyLabyrinth- as I said there are plenty of threads where you will get the robust debate you want.

I'm a woman and a feminist, and I'd like to think my voice matters too. Funnily enough, op's irl dilemma was worrying about being treated by her coworker if she disagreed with them, the way some people on this thread have been happy to treat me for disagreeing. Safe to say it's not a topic I'll be joining in irl for that reason, so now we're in the same boat!

Let's all have some empathy for each other, people.
Unwatching now, I get the message: this is your space.

Probably best not to hijack a support thread about a IRL dilemma.

Exactly - sadly I do feel these interventions whether done (supposely) innocently or with intent is making far to many threads basically repititions of the basics as it were.

ie the volume of these inteventions drags every thread back to a basic understanding and blocks the option to move forward.

Although no doubt some trans allies think this is a good ploy.

But also means what should be a support thread can get derailed, just be someone saying over and over again but I think like this way and so ignores what is said, or assumes it is just about I feel like this.

Maybe we should be a bit more sensitive or aware and at an early stage when something like this happens say this is a support thread, if you have an aspect of trans politics you want to discuss start your own thread.

In a way that was almost the worst part. Being totally oblivious to OP's situation.

And if you do proceed you must have a contract to protect your financial side/intellectual property, and fir him to protect his.

OP i have read all the posts so far.

I have a close trans identified family member and despite being gender critical I have no issue with refering to a trans man as he or generally to a trans woman as she.

Having said this, because for you it would be such a big issue to refer to this person as she, and avoiding pronouns completely is actually quite hard to do, I think you would be best to shelve the project. Debating it won't end well for you, or them, IMHO.

Good luck.

X post

Feminism is about and for women and girls. It’s the rights movement for us, half the planet, who are female, and traditionally oppressed by male people.

Men don’t qualify, it’s not about them any more than Save The Whales is required to campaign to protect leopards. As pp said, you’ll find lots of interesting discussions on this board where you can pontificate about the nature of gender identity to your heart’s content. Probably best not to hijack a support thread about a IRL dilemma.

Thanks, will have a browse. Although my first post did address the op's question specifically, I don't want to derail anyone's thread! I enjoy a good debate myself and learning about other people's views, but if you'd rather talk amongst yourselves I do respect that & will peace out.

Genuine good wishes & thanks to everyone who took the time to debate with me respectfully and didn't call me a man, a pick me or a Serena Joy lol

That's interesting to me. I thought this was for general sex and gender discussions; that's certainly how it started out. The way everyone seems only concerned with trans stuff now is part of what piqued my interest. But if it's only for gc people now, then I will respectfully bow out :) Carry on yall.

And as a pp said, in the UK murder victims are just as likely or more likely to have been killed by a trans identified male than be one. We’re talking very small numbers of both, of course, which is why that proportion fluctuates year on year.

I guessed you were American. Are you aware that trans identified males in the US are less likely to be murdered than other males statistically?

I'm remembering some high profile statistics from the US (I'm American) from a few years ago. But it's common sense, knowing how homophobic hate crime works, that the more visible you are in that way, the more at risk you are.

They wouldn't be any safer from the theoretical attack from random men (which I don't actually think is that common but other people seem to think predatory men are fixated on bathrooms as their preferred place of attack). They would be safer from misogynistic, homophobic men who might kick off if they saw "a bloke in a dress" in their loo.