Friend shocks me by suddenly saying he's female. How to handle this?

You're making a lot of assumptions about my feminism (including claiming I said you aren't one, which I never did?). I'm actually quite active in feminist spaces, which fully address the patriarchy, no punches pulled, and I'm very comfortable with that. We are not 'winsome' or 'nice.' But we are more concerned with men and societal misogyny than trans people.
I understand what you are saying, but pragmatically, realistically, it makes zero sense to me that a man would live his life the way you claim all trans women do. It's just not common sense. They'd have to be crazy to open themselves up to that, when society provides ample opportunities for men to victimise women without the hassle and prejudice!
You have every right to express your anger at the patriarchy, but I almost feel like the trans argument is a culture war wedge intentionally designed to splinter and distract us from bigger problems for women. Why else would we spend so much time & effort on such a tiny fraction of the population? It's suspicious to me.

The problem is your analysis.

He is not giving up his priviledge. He is using this priviledge to invade and imitate women, even though it is distressing and worse for women.

Have you not read the threads on FWR apart all the women (let alone the children) who have been, harmed, undermind and side lined by pretend women.

So if as you claim you are a feminist I suggest you exhibit this by showing solidarity with women.

Sadly there has always been a strand of "feminism" which goes for this winsome, I'm a nice feminist, a male ally stance. ie showing not upsetting men is more imporant that supporting women.

Funnily enough MN has provided a safe haven for all the women who think prioritising men over women is important because it shows they are nice. Its called Feminism "chat". You could go there and revel in your niceness and not have to deal with your double standard of it isn't nice that feminism shows that men are the problem.

Women as a sex class are oppressed by the male sex class.

And they never give that up.

If is the privildge of their male sex class that allows them to so easily demand that women should ehance their delusion at the expense of their lived reality as the oppressed sex class.

Its hardly feminist to say it doesn't bother me, so you shouldn't behave in a way that clearly shows that the dominant male culture is a relentless daily undermining of women.

What sort of "feminst" comes and tell women they cant be feminist because they dont think like you, whilst admitting you have never taken part in a discussion on the issue.

The arrogance.

If you chose to educate yourself you will find any number of threads who men insisting how than can be female has damaged women at work (to you know the number of employment court cases because men have intruded into women's spaces) the damage to children, Or maybe educate yourself by reading about the trans widows and the cost to them of male arrogance.

I am not vitriolic. I am expressing my sex class anger at the situation I have experience all my live. Or is this another, oh it just isn't nice if women are angry.

I think women aren't angry enough.

I think you are the one with a problem.

Take the male view of the world off your eyes and start recognising the worlld you are living in.

The OP has every right to be angry.

And so do I.

Because men keep on being shitty towards women.

As Women's Liberationists always used to say, aren't you aware of the men in your head (ie telling you how to think and not upset them)?

I see. What rights are you thinking of? I can't think of any that are that specific, but as you say I haven’t given it much thought.

Your feelings definitely matter! I don't myself, see why that is dehumanising, however.

(I do appreciate everyone's perspective, though, especially as most people have been respectful to me, as I hope I am also being)

@Melom I wanted to repost what you said up thread because I think it's the best advice on here.

Be humans with each other and don't treat each other like avatars of culture war positions and it will likely be fine

I think that's a very fair and common stance. Many people are just not involved in or aware of the nuances of the impact on women's rights if the definition of women includes men.

If we can't define ourselves in law then we cannot define our rights in law.

It's extremely important that women as a sex class are recognised in our own right and that we maintain those protections in law.

'I just hate seeing people be dehumanised, ever.'

It's pretty dehumanising to be impelled to participate in someone else's delusion. You may not. But that's what it feels like for many women. Do our feelings not matter?

That's your perogative and I respect that. I just don't think it's that deep, personally.

Respectfully, I am a feminist and I fully know and understand, from my own experience sadly, why women mistrust men. But the fact that I can't have an opposing view to yours without such a vitriolic response (as vitriolic as OP is expecting for her gc views) is pretty telling. I agree that male privilege is real and oppressive and no trans woman can know what it's like to grow up with that. I don't agree that any man would willingly give up that privilege unless they felt they had no choice. They certainly wouldn't upend their lives and invite loads of hate just to, idk, be spiteful to women? I'm never been in any online spaces on this topic, either for or against, except this thread now (thank goodness!), and I don't have any trans family of friends, so I really have no skin in the game. I just hate seeing people be dehumanised, ever.

If you are asking me to call a man 'she' then it very much is my life because you are asking me to change my language and to lie.

If you don't give a fuck either way, that's great. I get it.

I appreciate the nuance, but for me I have never been able to understand how the existence of trans women could possibly "invalidate" my existence as a woman. Nor how it might infringe on my rights. And truly, I cannot fathom how it degrades me.
I don't intend to be dismissive by saying 'overblown', because I can tell that most people are coming from a place of of genuine concern, but I more meant to highlight that the discourse on this topic is HUGE compared to other things that actually affect women a lot more. It makes me suspicious that this is one of those culture wars peddled by the powers that be to distract from much bigger problems.

Why wouldn't you? It's not your life. If it makes them happy, idgaf personally.

• Because it’s courteous and respectful to call people what they prefer to be called
• Because pronouns are a feature of language not biology, and there are plenty of examples both in English and outside of it of gendered pronouns being used to refer to things other than biological females
• Because it doesn’t feel to me like calling a transwoman “she” is the same as being forced to believe she has literally changed sex. I refer to my son's teddy as "he", this doesn't mean I think it has sentience or a penis
• Because I recognise it’s genuinely offensive and upsetting to some people to be misgendered and I don’t enjoy offending and upsetting people who I otherwise bear no malice towards, nor do I see any advantage in doing so
• Because trans people and gender critical people do have to co-exist in the world and that requires some degree of compromise; I'm happy to respect what is important to them if they respect what's important to me. Pretending trans people don't exist or can be made to stop existing or that we can avoid ever encountering or interacting with them is neither productive or realistic
• Because like it or not it’s effectively impossible to have a decent professional, social or familial relationship with a trans person if you deliberately misgender them - you may not like this fact, but it is a fact, and it's up to you how to choose to respond to that - my decision is that it would be to my own disadvantage if I chose to limit my circle of acquaintance in this way (as OP’s situation demonstrates, since she seems likely to lose both a lucrative business opportunity and a friendship, leaving her poorer in two different senses)
• Because quite honestly I think it makes the gender critical movement look bad in many people's eyes if we are deliberately rude and offensive and appear incapable of what many view as the most basic of courtesies when we interact with trans people

@FarewelltotheHorse

It is obvious what the prejudice here is, literally all we know about this person from the OP is that they have come out as trans via a facebook post.

It's not at all obvious that it's prejudice, that's why I suggested you make your charges specific rather than general.

so again you're wading in with another massive and unfounded assumptiom

The large majority of transwomen are heterosexual males, that's drawn from clinical studies. So, it's not a fantastical possibility. But I wasn't asserting it, merely noting that if it were true (we don't know one way or the other) then we would naturally be sympathetic with someone made queasy by working with the man in question.

My greater point is caution is more than justified about a man who suddenly declares a gender identity in a work place situation for a women who is serious about not self-abnegating her gender critical views - though I do somewhat regret my post as @IwantToRetire's post is much more straightforward and clear about why this is a silly discussion.

I haven't read the entire thread but I've read all your posts OP. I agree, not a problem if just a case of him wearing cliched female clothes and looking a bit Dame Edna, but a big problem if you're meant to go along with the fantasy, and if there's drama if you say the wrong word.

I also wonder about long term, after the project fruition - will this man be involved with the commercial side? I mean, would be have to be there for commercial presentations or similar? And then all the potential clients having to also play along with the fantasy. It might be fine in the context of woke corporate environments or woo local authorities, and there are even non-binary barristers who wear make up and look stupid, but maybe less productive when you're trying to be taken seriously selling a product.

I wouldn't have any problem with your name.

I would only have a problem if you wanted me to use opposite sex pronouns.

Can you explain to me why I should call a man 'she'?

It is obvious what the prejudice here is, literally all we know about this person from the OP is that they have come out as trans via a facebook post, and look at all the assumptions and assertions that are being made about him on this thread by people who don't even know who he is, including yourself.

In addition there are (ex)spouses of trans identifying men associations with hair raising accounts of narcissistic spouses who concealed their narcissism and maintained long lists of grievances against their wives of perceived gender slights, before and after transition, and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviour.

OP is not this person's wife.

Finally, it doesn't require a great deal of imagination to suppose that some people would be highly offended about a heterosexual man suddenly declaring himself a lesbian and asserting that he is in the same category as a natal female homosexual and real lesbians might find close working proximity with such an individual problematic.

OP has not mentioned this individual's sexuality or that they have made any reference to it, so again you're wading in with another massive and unfounded assumption about this person just because they are trans.

The situation is far from clear cut, but I certainly wouldn't suggest dialogue or engagement. I would instead advise extreme caution and taking a defensive stance.

This person is OP's friend. If you cannot have dialogue and engagement with a friend you cannot have it with anybody, and I don't personally want to be part of a GC movement that holds dialogue and engagement with trans people are impossible - if nothing else, this dooms the movement to failure since trans people are not about to simply disappear and if we cannot find ways to live with them in the world, we're creating our own problems, much as frankly I feel OP is. There is certainly no way forward if we simply treat trans people as monsters by default, that isn't a reasonable position, it's a kneejerk, reactionary, prejudiced position that is rooted in being anti-trans, not pro women's rights.

I completely understand your trepidation, OP. Your friend is going through a seismic shift in his life, out of the blue, and you have every right to be concerned. You are about to embark on a new project working very closely with him and if he were going through any kind of massive change in circumstances, I’m sure you would have reservations. The fact that this is a trans issue is almost a red herring, because the point is that this upheaval has revealed aspects of his character you were unaware of and you have every right to be concerned. It’s clearly a shock to you and you are probably wondering how well you really know your friend if there were no signs until he blurted it out on Facebook and hasn’t even had any direct communication with you.

The fact that he is trans is unfortunately a good reason to be worried if you are gender critical. Recent history shows us that women are right to fear censure (and worse) from trans activists, and whilst your friend might never have a problem with your opinions, you don’t know how his transition is going to progress and what he might expect from you. Hell, you had no idea he thought he might be a woman until the eyeliner and earring reveal ten years into your relationship, so what happens next is a big unknown.

It’s frankly insulting and disingenuous for some posters to come here and accuse you of being transphobic and unprofessional when it is the actions of trans-rights movement over the past few years that have led us to the situation we are in now. Courts have affirmed that your gender critical beliefs are WORIADS, a woman is an adult human female, but we are still at risk of being cancelled for not being ‘kind’. So do what is right for you and protect yourself as best you can.

What I wrote a bit earlier covers exactly this. Most relevant part in bold. I hope people don't mind me pasting it all here.

I disagree about the “you” problem.

Before trans ideology demanded that women deny their sex and sacrifice their rights, protections and language itself, I’d have been ok in OP’s position.
But now? As long as working with a trans person requires supporting their perspective of themselves as female (or male) - and note that the OP does say “female”, not “woman” - that requires a compromise from another. You implicitly acknowledge this yourself in your references to courtesy, and the apparent necessity of you theorising about pronouns to show it.

Gestures like these have an accumulated social and cultural weight - a meaning that goes beyond mere words. To call your boss “Sir,” is to accept the hierarchy of your company: “I acknowledge your seniority.” And this is where the issue is - not with OP herself,

To call an trans woman “she” used merely to signify, “I wish to show, in the isolated instances of my using your chosen pronoun, that I would like you to feel comfortable.” And that was a reasonable request. But now, that gentle gesture of the past has come to be associated with supporting a movement that denies the validity of who the OP is herself, to a viscerally distressing degree. And that has actual concrete consequences form women’s rights. No wonder she finds it degrading - I do, too.

I suspect that whether or not you do depends on how au fait you are with the demands of this ideology and the fight to retain our protections in law. But, regardless, it’s not a problem with the OP, but very much a problem with a trans activism that is making the accommodations many of us were previously ready or even keen to offer all but incompatible with our own rights and autonomy. And that, as such, is harming the more vulnerable trans individuals, too.

To blame the OP for that harm is to massively oversimplify this issue.

Whatever you think of the arguments above, though, I can tell you for a fact that I personally find it degrading and quite distressing to call a male "she" after everything I've seen and read and experienced in this debate. I don't support misgendering either (at least in a context such as this one - crime, prisons and sports, my views are different). But a neutral approach - "they" / names only respects both sides. In a situation in which both individuals feel their identity and rights are at stake, this feels fairest.

And the fact that only the one side is typically validated in this perception, whereas the other's (women's) equivalent concerns are typically dismissed as overblown (if we're lucky!) does also tend to reinforce for me which side is perhaps the more overlooked and undervalued right now.

Well, yeah. I don't think anyone should be sacked for it or anything, but if I asked you to call me Nicky and you insisted on calling me Nicole (for example), I might think you were rude. That's ok too. Like you said, people aren't always going to agree, and there are social repercussions for all our actions in terms of people's opinions. For her potentially, and certainly for her friend who she's now terrified of and thinks may be radicalised with zero evidence.

Just asking on here shows how you will be expected to accept the ridiculous. I'd be not going ahead with this project now.

It's a shame it's like this. I'm sure if he'd said he wanted to dress in women's clothing and wear make-up, it'd be fine, who cares? But it's the level of expected conformity that is the problem. He's always going to be a man.

I think there's a word for it when you judge an entire group by the actions of it's worst members, I'm just trying to remember what it is...

It's safeguarding.

Yes, we judge entire groups (men) by the actions of its worst members.

This is why we have separate male and female facilities in the first place.

And this is why we do DBS checks for people who want to work with children and other people with vulnerabilities.

It's not rocket science.

I don't see how that follows unless her colleague was making her change her own pronouns. When we interact with the people around us on a daily basis, we assume gender based on cultural signifiers, even though that may mean we get it wrong sometimes, but that's nothing to do with our own views or beliefs about gender, it's just the practicality of getting by in a society. I know I'm a woman, and what other people may call themselves doesn’t invalidate that.
I do understand why it's a fraught topic, but it seems hugely overblown imo.