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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cambridge Union debate - This House Believes modern LGBTQ+ activism fails its community

237 replies

ItsCoolForCats · 15/05/2026 07:15

I'm starting this thread mainly so I can post this link because Maeve Halligan is a force to be reckoned with:

https://x.com/i/status/2055119527914938412

They lost the debate, which was to be expected given the state of universities on this issue, but Thea Sewell said they got a respectable number of votes. Hopefully they have planted some seeds in people's minds.

Other speakers were Buck Angel and Helen Webberley (for the other side).

Full debate is here https://www.youtube.com/live/wE0JY9d7f-w?si=4ZIVmcxyevo0DQvB

Thea Sewell (@theasewell05) on X

lIf you do anything today, watch @MaeveHalligan at the Cambridge Union. I genuinely think this was the first time many people in that room were confronted with the hard reality of the trans debate, rather than the slogans that usually surround it. @Bu...

https://x.com/i/status/2055119527914938412

OP posts:
SnoopyPajamas · 17/05/2026 20:22

EmilyinEverton · 16/05/2026 02:45

Whilst lesbianism was only considered same sex attraction in the past, Maeve makes the categorical error (among many) that definitions are set in stone when they aren't given they are at the mercy of social usage. 'Transbianism'/same gender attraction becomes legitimised because of its existence & usage.

I appreciate some same sex attracted lesbians find this problematic particularly in terms of free association but conflicting rights doesn't delegitimise the existence of a phenomena. These (rights & existence) are two separate issues.

It's not a legitimate lesbian phenomenon, though, is it? A transbian is not a lesbian, and a woman attracted to a transbian isn't either.

It's not actually that complicated. People only make it so because they don't like the conflict it brings up between reality and their own self-image. It's like the people in same sex relationships who claim to be "straight with an exception". It all just translates to "I'm bisexual but I've got hang-ups about it".

Which isn't anyone else's problem, and is no reason to deny the rest of us clear language.

moto748e · 17/05/2026 18:15

I thought the idea of these debates was that people were 'supposed' to vote according to which argument was better presented, not on their personal views. Insofar as that is possible.

Tatatan · 17/05/2026 18:05

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 17:36

Yes, exactly that ❤️

Although I must admit, I had not heard the phrase "god-botherer" before and had to look it up. Well, I had heard it, but not very often and had never stopped to think about what it meant.

This was the definition I found:

"A person who persistently promotes religious beliefs to others, even when unwelcome."

Glad I know now as it's the perfect analogy for a TRA who sees refusal to accept transwomen in women's sports etc as "intolerance". Given I don't share their belief (that transwomen are women), there is no way I'd accept them in women's sports. It's very frustrating that the TRAs are framing it as lack of acceptance on my part too... when all I'm actually doing is saying don't enforce your beliefs on me.

Maybe we can coin a new word, the Trans-Botherer!

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 17:36

Tatatan · 17/05/2026 17:02

It's an important comparison, the Trans ideology and the God ideology. God-botherers have killed and harmed others down the ages, witch-burnings in medieval Europe being among the worst. But some of us who have a sense of the divine are also people who reject the intolerance of most organised religion, which is, I think, what you were trying to highlight.

Yes, exactly that ❤️

Although I must admit, I had not heard the phrase "god-botherer" before and had to look it up. Well, I had heard it, but not very often and had never stopped to think about what it meant.

This was the definition I found:

"A person who persistently promotes religious beliefs to others, even when unwelcome."

Glad I know now as it's the perfect analogy for a TRA who sees refusal to accept transwomen in women's sports etc as "intolerance". Given I don't share their belief (that transwomen are women), there is no way I'd accept them in women's sports. It's very frustrating that the TRAs are framing it as lack of acceptance on my part too... when all I'm actually doing is saying don't enforce your beliefs on me.

Heggettypeg · 17/05/2026 17:34

MarieDeGournay · 17/05/2026 15:16

It's been interesting observing how many versions of trans-ness there have been, from 'TWAW, 100% women, just like any other woman, no difference at all, how dare you be such a hateful transphobe as to suggest I'm not a woman just like you?' to 'I have a piece of paper that says I'm a woman, that's all that matters' to 'My testicles don't make me any less a woman' to 'Obviously I haven't actually changed my biological sex, I've changed my gender and that's what matters' to ...oh who knows what the current iteration is!

On reflection, these haven't replaced each other over time, I think they are all still in circulation - Dr Upton for instance claimed that he had in fact become a biological female, at the same time as other trans-IDing men were making different claims.

(You missed "I'm a woman because other people treat me like one"! )

This is the infuriating part. We're told over and over that we must believe, we must affirm, no debate, no questions. But they can't even agree amongst themselves what the story we're supposed to believe actually is.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/05/2026 17:27

EmilyinEverton · 17/05/2026 13:25

You realise the overwhelming majority of domestic violence is by one's intimate partner & sexual violence mostly occurs in the victims or perps home & as such is known to the victim? Exactly how will women's private spaces preventing trans women entering fix that?

See where Gender Critical ideology is going? Nowhere that's helping women's safety in a meaningful way. In actual fact it prevents it by dominating the media & political space effectively silencing the lion's share of where violence emanates from.

The Patriarchy couldn't have wished for more useful idiots.

If you think that allowing men to enter women's spaces without let or hindrance simply by declaring that they are women, and thus have the right to do so, is progressive for women's rights, you are either being disingenuous or naïve. For men to respect women in domestic settings, they need to be brought up to respect women. And even then, it's not enough without societal pressure to behave in ways that recognise women's needs and wishes.

Men have tendencies to aggression and power wielding; the well intentioned ones fight against letting these tendencies have free rein. Seeing other men getting away with bad behaviour doesn't help in that fight to behave better. I expect feminists don't entirely like the concept of chivalry, but it was one example of societal pressure on men to treat women with respect.

Tatatan · 17/05/2026 17:02

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 16:47

TBF I don't actually mind whether most people do or don't believe in god, a higher spirit, Allah, ghosts or anything else. It doesn't bother me at all that some people believe we all have a gender identity. I don't believe it, they do believe it. All good.

What I do mind is when people force their beliefs onto others in a way that demands active participation with the practices of their belief.

It's an important comparison, the Trans ideology and the God ideology. God-botherers have killed and harmed others down the ages, witch-burnings in medieval Europe being among the worst. But some of us who have a sense of the divine are also people who reject the intolerance of most organised religion, which is, I think, what you were trying to highlight.

Tatatan · 17/05/2026 16:52

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 16:47

TBF I don't actually mind whether most people do or don't believe in god, a higher spirit, Allah, ghosts or anything else. It doesn't bother me at all that some people believe we all have a gender identity. I don't believe it, they do believe it. All good.

What I do mind is when people force their beliefs onto others in a way that demands active participation with the practices of their belief.

Amen to that! :-)

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 16:47

Tatatan · 17/05/2026 16:34

If you meant the UK, you should say. Top Google hit just now says 21% ‘believe in neither God nor any higher spirit’. That is not ‘most people’!

Apparently, ‘40% say they believe in God as described in holy scriptures, 20% believe in a higher spirit but not as described in holy scriptures, another 21% believe in neither God nor any higher spirit, while 19% are not sure or will not say’.

www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2023-05/Ipsos%20Global%20Advisor%20-%20Religion%202023%20Report%20-%2026%20countries.pdf

TBF I don't actually mind whether most people do or don't believe in god, a higher spirit, Allah, ghosts or anything else. It doesn't bother me at all that some people believe we all have a gender identity. I don't believe it, they do believe it. All good.

What I do mind is when people force their beliefs onto others in a way that demands active participation with the practices of their belief.

Taztoy · 17/05/2026 16:41

Oh I know. It’s the other persons internal cognition that matters. Not their actions towards me. Rape included. Lolz.

which is why I’m so concerned about the dismantling of consent. This movement is, in my opinion, a slippery slope to rape apology and removal of women’s right to object.

Tatatan · 17/05/2026 16:34

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 09:13

Indeed.

According to figures from the last census in the UK, most people don't believe in god. Only 46% of the UK population does:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

As for the ghosts bit, who knows? All we've got on that AFAIK is personal anecdote. Personally, I do because of an experience that I've had. When I share my experience, I'm met with a mix of "me too", open-mindedness and people thinking I'm mad.

Whichever way you look at it, beliefs are personal and nobody should force or coerce others to adopt practices of their own belief. Yes, people might empathise with me that my mum passed away 5 years ago, yes they might understand why I sometimes talk to her out loud... but I'm not so entrenched in my belief in ghosts to demand that they should talk to her too (and tell them that if they don't, they are being unkind invalidating my belief)**. However, that's exactly what happens when trans(-identifying) people guilt-trip everyone into using opposite-sex pronouns, accepting transwomen in women's sports and so on. They are forcing their belief onto others and calling them heretics (transphobes, bigots, Nazis etc) if they don't comply with this demand.

**I'm yet to hear anything back from her TBF. Mildly annoying, given I really didn't need to hear from the random woman that did engage with me. So I'm left in a position where I do believe in ghosts but haven't actually had any benefit from it. FFS.

If you meant the UK, you should say. Top Google hit just now says 21% ‘believe in neither God nor any higher spirit’. That is not ‘most people’!

Apparently, ‘40% say they believe in God as described in holy scriptures, 20% believe in a higher spirit but not as described in holy scriptures, another 21% believe in neither God nor any higher spirit, while 19% are not sure or will not say’.

www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2023-05/Ipsos%20Global%20Advisor%20-%20Religion%202023%20Report%20-%2026%20countries.pdf

DrBlackbird · 17/05/2026 16:32

'transbian' lol 😜

most of the British public is confused by ‘transwoman’ or transfemme…

you have to give it to the TRAs, they don’t give up without a fight. A dirty, jargon filled, word salad fight, but a fight all the same. Like Medusa’s head, they just keep popping up with some new angle when the old one is rebuffed or disproven.

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 16:21

Taztoy · 17/05/2026 15:54

See also

I completely accept that trans individuals exist and can dress however they like

but how do I know what a genuine trans person is? How can I identify them?

don’t get told that answer either.

To be fair to the TRAs, answering it would be transphobic. Take Pete the Plumber, the fictitious character who came to life during the Sandie Peggie tribunal, for example.

If Pete said "she" was a woman, what self-respecting TRA would dare to tell Pete that "she" wasn't womanly enough to use the women's facilities?

According to trans rights activism, if Pete says she is a woman, she is. End of.

More on Pete:

forwomen.scot/12/02/2025/the-problem-with-pete/

Taztoy · 17/05/2026 15:54

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/05/2026 15:50

But the lack of an answer is fairly illuminating in its own way …

See also

I completely accept that trans individuals exist and can dress however they like

but how do I know what a genuine trans person is? How can I identify them?

don’t get told that answer either.

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/05/2026 15:50

Taztoy · 17/05/2026 15:37

I keep asking the same questions and I never get answers. It’s disappointing.

But the lack of an answer is fairly illuminating in its own way …

Taztoy · 17/05/2026 15:37

I keep asking the same questions and I never get answers. It’s disappointing.

FrippEnos · 17/05/2026 15:36

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 15:29

Good point. I too don't want anyone consenting on my behalf for males to break the law and enter women's spaces.

Yes, @EmilyinEverton by all means please do advocate for mix-sexed spaces where you and other women who describe themselves as cis are happy to share spaces with males who describe themselves as women.

You'd have to be careful to follow the Equality Act, so you'd need to allow any male in who self-describes as a woman. No dress code, no genital inspections, no rules on "passing" as a woman - it would be both degrading and unlawful to put in such standards.

Edited for clarity

Edited

It does seem to have been forgotten by TRAs and their supporters that consent is not transferable.

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 15:29

Taztoy · 17/05/2026 15:22

And can I add @BonfireLady you might be happy to budge up for men but I’m not and no one else gets to consent for me so what other laws do you intend to reduce the primacy of consent in?

Good point. I too don't want anyone consenting on my behalf for males to break the law and enter women's spaces.

Yes, @EmilyinEverton by all means please do advocate for mix-sexed spaces where you and other women who describe themselves as cis are happy to share spaces with males who describe themselves as women.

You'd have to be careful to follow the Equality Act, so you'd need to allow any male in who self-describes as a woman. No dress code, no genital inspections, no rules on "passing" as a woman - it would be both degrading and unlawful to put in such standards.

Edited for clarity

FrippEnos · 17/05/2026 15:25

MarieDeGournay · 17/05/2026 15:16

It's been interesting observing how many versions of trans-ness there have been, from 'TWAW, 100% women, just like any other woman, no difference at all, how dare you be such a hateful transphobe as to suggest I'm not a woman just like you?' to 'I have a piece of paper that says I'm a woman, that's all that matters' to 'My testicles don't make me any less a woman' to 'Obviously I haven't actually changed my biological sex, I've changed my gender and that's what matters' to ...oh who knows what the current iteration is!

On reflection, these haven't replaced each other over time, I think they are all still in circulation - Dr Upton for instance claimed that he had in fact become a biological female, at the same time as other trans-IDing men were making different claims.

Part of the comedy in this is that there is no consensus in the descriptions that are being used by the trans lobby as definitions, and that they all change and conflict with each other,
It is why the trans umbrella got so big and then they started to remove various groups that didn't fit.

Taztoy · 17/05/2026 15:22

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 15:20

Great question. Definitely worth a bump.

I'd like to add to it. But firstly, I'm so sorry to read (previously on MN, can't remember which thread) what you've been through 💐

@EmilyinEverton I also don’t fancy women. And I don’t fancy men who present as women. Does that make me transphobic?

Moving on from sexual attraction...

Other than some groping incidents, I count myself as lucky that I've not experienced anything traumatic that makes me really have to think hard about why single-sex spaces are important. TBF I didn't think about it for many years, even when I already knew that giving puberty blockers to distressed children was a bad idea.

As I've had no direct experience of males behaving badly in women's spaces, should I just budge up and accept the ones who tell me they are women into the ladies' changing rooms and loos? How do I know which are the nice ones, when the ones with a fetish pretend to be nice too, and claim that they are oppressed and marginalised?

Are you aware of autogynophilia? If not, I could definitely understand why you might not be concerned about biological males in women's spaces.

And can I add @BonfireLady you might be happy to budge up for men but I’m not and no one else gets to consent for me so what other laws do you intend to reduce the primacy of consent in?

BonfireLady · 17/05/2026 15:20

Taztoy · 17/05/2026 14:50

@EmilyinEverton just asking again as i think you’ve missed it

Great question. Definitely worth a bump.

I'd like to add to it. But firstly, I'm so sorry to read (previously on MN, can't remember which thread) what you've been through 💐

@EmilyinEverton I also don’t fancy women. And I don’t fancy men who present as women. Does that make me transphobic?

Moving on from sexual attraction...

Other than some groping incidents, I count myself as lucky that I've not experienced anything traumatic that makes me really have to think hard about why single-sex spaces are important. TBF I didn't think about it for many years, even when I already knew that giving puberty blockers to distressed children was a bad idea.

As I've had no direct experience of males behaving badly in women's spaces, should I just budge up and accept the ones who tell me they are women into the ladies' changing rooms and loos? How do I know which are the nice ones, when the ones with a fetish pretend to be nice too, and claim that they are oppressed and marginalised?

Are you aware of autogynophilia? If not, I could definitely understand why you might not be concerned about biological males in women's spaces.

MarieDeGournay · 17/05/2026 15:16

FrippEnos · 17/05/2026 14:58

I think that its worth noting that TRAs have moved from all transwomen are safe to all trans women are safe its the "Cis" men pretending to be trans that are the problem, then ignoring their own rules on self ID.

It's been interesting observing how many versions of trans-ness there have been, from 'TWAW, 100% women, just like any other woman, no difference at all, how dare you be such a hateful transphobe as to suggest I'm not a woman just like you?' to 'I have a piece of paper that says I'm a woman, that's all that matters' to 'My testicles don't make me any less a woman' to 'Obviously I haven't actually changed my biological sex, I've changed my gender and that's what matters' to ...oh who knows what the current iteration is!

On reflection, these haven't replaced each other over time, I think they are all still in circulation - Dr Upton for instance claimed that he had in fact become a biological female, at the same time as other trans-IDing men were making different claims.

Wearenotborg · 17/05/2026 15:02

FrippEnos · 17/05/2026 14:58

I think that its worth noting that TRAs have moved from all transwomen are safe to all trans women are safe its the "Cis" men pretending to be trans that are the problem, then ignoring their own rules on self ID.

That’s it exactly. How are we to tell the difference? No TRA has ever been able to name one benefit to women for allowing males into female spaces. They tell s not allowing them in harms women, but can’t explain why. Almost like they think women are stupid.

FrippEnos · 17/05/2026 14:58

Wearenotborg · 17/05/2026 14:52

So how will allowing males into female spaces make women safer? By women I mean adult human females. I mean, how are women to know who is a “genuine” male with a trans identity and who is a male pretending to be a TIM? You will be making all spaces mixed sex. How does this benefit women? What benefit do women get from allowing all spaces to become mixed sex?

I think that its worth noting that TRAs have moved from all transwomen are safe to all trans women are safe its the "Cis" men pretending to be trans that are the problem, then ignoring their own rules on self ID.

Wearenotborg · 17/05/2026 14:52

EmilyinEverton · 17/05/2026 13:25

You realise the overwhelming majority of domestic violence is by one's intimate partner & sexual violence mostly occurs in the victims or perps home & as such is known to the victim? Exactly how will women's private spaces preventing trans women entering fix that?

See where Gender Critical ideology is going? Nowhere that's helping women's safety in a meaningful way. In actual fact it prevents it by dominating the media & political space effectively silencing the lion's share of where violence emanates from.

The Patriarchy couldn't have wished for more useful idiots.

So how will allowing males into female spaces make women safer? By women I mean adult human females. I mean, how are women to know who is a “genuine” male with a trans identity and who is a male pretending to be a TIM? You will be making all spaces mixed sex. How does this benefit women? What benefit do women get from allowing all spaces to become mixed sex?