Inside the mind of a non-binary woman

@TheHereticalOne Flerbit! That's brilliant 🤣

thank god they found each other!

You've reminded me of what Samuel Butler said about Thomas and Jane Carlyle - that it was very good of God to let them marry each other "and so make only two people miserable instead of four."

The idea that you'd work this sort of subjective, undefineable, unverifiable flim-flam belief into legal definitions, reasoning or policy designed to guard against real world harm - much less require anyone on pain of prosecution to respect or join in such a belief - is absolutely bonkers.

This is a comfort. However bonkers a party ends up in government, it's impossible to draft coherent legislation on things you cannot define.

My friends kid had an imaginary brother who was 'blue and lives in Italy' until he was 6.

He's now a perfectly functional teen.

4 year old do indeed say all kinds of shit. They also usually believe in both father Christmas and the tooth fairy. But no, according to some they know they have a different gender 🙄

Right.

Then it has as much meaning as me saying I am a Flerbit.

What is a Flerbit, you ask? It's nothing to do with the physical body and it's also nothing to do with traits, clothes, preferences, stereotypes. It's personal. If you are a Flerbit, you just know you are. That's it.

Also, because I am a Flerbit I should be able to play on under-8s sports teams, join primary school children in the classroom and on school trips without needing a DBS check etc. etc.

Ah, you may say, so a Flerbit is something to do with age and someone who thinks they are under 8 years of age? BUT NO! Flerbit and age are separate things!

NONETHELESS, because I am a Flerbit I should be entitled to things that 8 year olds are entitled to.

But not because I think I have only lived for 8 years or appear to be 8 years old or have anything in common with 8 year olds in terms of interests, preferences, feelings or stereotypes.

But because I'm a Flerbit.

Keep up.

Anyway, just trust me (and give me the things).

By your reasoning, prior claiming a trans identity should be taken into account in law, policy and reasoning to exactly the same extent as Flerbits. That it's to say, they have every right to think of themselves as they like, they shouldn't be harrassed or denied housing, service in shops or employment (like any other person holding an unverifable personal belief system) but that's absolutely it.

The idea that you'd work this sort of subjective, undefineable, unverifiable flim-flam belief into legal definitions, reasoning or policy designed to guard against real world harm - much less require anyone on pain of prosecution to respect or join in such a belief - is absolutely bonkers.

(Flerbits unite)

What worries me with all this is that women are being expected to give up various rights on the basis of a "just something" that it seems non-trans people can't understand, and which trans people seem unable to explain.

If you don't change your body, and have an eclectic wardrobe and a variously-gendered range of activities and interests, what does "living as" (the opposite sex, or as non-binary) actually entail?

Must admit I was a bit stumped by that post too. Serious question @Imdunfer , what did you find reasonable? As in 'reasoned using logic'.

Where? Did I miss them? All I’ve seen is word salad, waffle and narcissism.

So if trabs is “just who someone says they are”, with no actual definition, then how can a trans person know they are living as the opposite sex? If no one can define which sex is which, how can someone know they are the “”wrong” sex. Therefore no one can know they are trans. Basically you’ve just erased transpeople. Well done. But transphobic but you do you.

She says: ‘I always knew I wasn’t cisgender. As a child, I enjoyed both boys’ and girls’ toys, clothes and activities. I would wrestle with my dad before going to dance class with my mum. I wore Disney princess dresses with Timberland hiking boots underneath.’

god almighty, that sounds like a perfectly normal girl. Why do some people have such narrow, rigid, stereotypical ideas of sex??? So fucking regressive.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed Your child has been led to believe something that has no basis in reality. However hard you try, you cannot bend reality to fit her belief. It would be kinder to tell her the truth. She's a girl.

Bumping 'cos it's so good.

God, this is so regressive it’s ridiculous. It’s like we’ve gone back to the 1950s. I expected a better argument & description of what being non-binary is from someone who, by writing an article about it, presumably wants to try and convince readers it’s a valid identity. She can’t be that basic and stupid that she actually thinks a girl playing with both boys and girls toys means she’s part-male 🙄. It’s embarrassing. I’d at least expect her to say something like, “it’s not simply that I grew up playing with girls’ and boys’ toys and liked wearing both boys’ and girls’ clothes, it’s something deeply ingrained in my brain, it’s very hard to understand if you haven’t experienced it blah blah” that would at least make me ponder whether it might actually be real but saying it’s because she liked “boys stuff” FFS! It’s so ignorant and so utterly self-absorbed. I can’t imagine anything more boring than making your whole identity about what gender you are. I grew up playing with Barbie’s and action men. I liked them both equally. I played football with my dad, I did dance classes, I also had Timberland boots (which weren’t even masculine! Girls and boys wore them equally in the 90s!) I also loved a good party dress. I’m a lesbian and as a fully grown woman now I rarely wear dresses or heels unless it’s a wedding or really fancy party, in which case I might choose to rock a really fem dress and heels and like feeling feminine and being in touch with my femininity. But I could just as easily choose to wear a fitted suit and love being in touch with my more masculine side but I wouldn’t “feel like a man”. I’d feel like a lesbian. There’s a huge difference that I don’t think young women today understand sadly. I’d feel more like a lesbian if I was wearing a suit, I’d feel more like a straight woman (I guess cos I’m my mind I associate straight with feminine) if I was wearing a dress and heels. It’s fun to explore both sides though. I never “feel like a man” though. That’s so different to expressing your masculine side as a woman or feeling like a lesbian

Thank you.

And incredibly telling it was deleted. Presumably for the last line which gave someone an excuse not to engage with several paragraphs of unrefutable reasoning. Sigh.

As I said in the post, they got nothing. And we all see it. Every time they reply with "no it's not that" and never with "actually, it's this, and this is how it makes sense", it's more and more clear.

They. Got. Nothing.

And I notice you replied to this post where you could have a little dig, but not the posts with the hard questions about how your assertions fit into our shared reality.

Because like it or not, when you define anyone as a "boy" or a "girl" because of something in their mind rather than their body, you are imposing identity on the rest of humanity as well, half because you are saying they have "this thing that is not sex" in common with that person, and half because you are saying "they all have this thing in common that this person does not have".

And no word salad in the world changes that. It's unavoidable the moment you allow the language of sex to label something mental.

Do you understand transparent about words having meanings, and children not being born knowing the meanings of words? In order for your child to think they're "a man" they have to ascribe some meaning to the word "man" that isn't "person with a male body". There's a logical gap here that any amount of saying they just know is not going to get you around.

That. Is. Meaingless. Word. Salad.

Until. You. Are. Able. To. Clearly. Explain. What. If. Anything. Connects. A. Trans. "Boy" .To. The. Male. People. Also. Called. "Boy" .

And. What. If. Anything. Is. Different. Between. A. Trans. "Boy". And. Other. Female. People.

All. You. Have. Is. A. Person. Wrongly. Interpreting. Their. Emotional. State. As. Meaning. They. Are. Somehow. Mentally. Different. To. Others. Of. Their. Sex.

Until. You. Can. Put. Meaning. Behind. Your. Words. Your. Claim. Your. Child. Is. Really. Trans. In. Any. Way. That. Is. More. Meaningful. Than. A Self. Defined. And. Self. Imposed. Label. Has. As. Much. Behind. It. As. You. Claiming. Your. Child. Is. An. Apple. Or. A Boat. Or. Any. Other. Abtritrary. Word.

If. You. Want. Your. Child's. "Boyness". To. Be. Respected. By. Anyone. Outside. Their. And. Your. Head. You. Need. To. Make. It. Meaningful. To. Others.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

I would like to thank you for you very calm and reasonable explanations on this thread.

The numbering is just an NM glitch, it does h he sad be to me.

I read the rest of your thread thinking "but that's just how all of us who aren't totally male or female live".

I do think, though, that the AGF males who are among the most vociferous in trans activism have done your child and their community immense harm.

Hang on, so you think the only thing women have in common is experience of misogyny, but some men (trans men) experience it too?

Thank you, you're welcome.

I know that I don't believe there is any right or wrong way to be a woman. And that includes being a trans woman. I'm a firm believer w e're such different people that only one thing unites us: experience of misogyny. I don't believe in the 'special.experience' of being female, or that birth is an achievement.

I think that the bravery of women, living with constant fear and prejudice but persisting, is our collective achievement. Unfortunately. Something cis men will never understand, but trans men do.

Trans men are different to cis men because they suffer the effects of misogyny as well. They are usually ardent feminists. My son is a trans man, but he often jokes that he doesn't like "blokes". He is always hypervigilant to danger, because being a trans man makes you the target of considerable misogynistic anger. (And the intrusive questions from others! Amazing how grown adults will ask a child 'exactly what are you?' or 'how do you have sex?')

I appreciate it's difficult to get your head round..My son put it like this: "you've always said you didn't have to convince other people, that knew you were a woman. I always knew I wasn't."

I don't know how it feels to be trans. But I do know he is not a woman, and that the kid who danced at Covent Garden with a perfect bun* en pointe had long before told someone he was a boy.

*done by his dad

Is it:

Were you yourself gnc before or after your child came out as trans?