Inside the mind of a non-binary woman

When I first joined MN there were often posts about indigo children, I'm guessing they're all trans now, with the same indulgent idiot parents.

Privilege Laundering is a brilliant concept (and bang on the money!)

Absolutely.

It's both a power play and a means to launder any other "privilege" someone might have - particularly handy for any "cis-white-heteronormative" etc members of the professional managerial classes and their ilk.

Bloody hell - the regressive reversion to "pink & blue" aisles in Mothercare etc in the 00's have a lot to answer for!

That'll be because you are non-binary! Ta daaa!

This article is deeply, deeply wanky. But I tried.

Oh, like when this poster told me to stop talking about this issue when I disclosed about my trauma caused by my abusive TIM ex? Was that full of reason? How I should shut up about this issue as it was obviously “traumatising” me? Yeah… no.

Human, like all other mammals, cannot be "non binary" utter narcissistic drivel.

Ah, so reasonable as in the way she conducts herself, not reasonable as in the logic of her arguments.
Thanks for clarifying.

For some reason I woke up in the middle of the night wondering about Indigo children.

I did get back to sleep again eventually.

We will indeed. I fear this one is going to be a doozy because they're essentially trying to legislate who can say what to one another. As they can't possibly comprehensively list every bit of speech they'd want to ban, it will have to be drafted widely.

If we're 'lucky' there will be an element of intent (objective or subjective) to 'convert' that has to be proven. If we're unlucky, intent will be irrelevant and the subjective take on the part of the listener or any third party will be paramount.

In either case you can never really be certain whether or not you're breaking the law (but more so in the latter case).

That, to me, is bad law but it's increasingly common as we increasingly seek to regulate how people speak to each other and how people feel.

No four year old has the capacity to make such a huge declaration. Only TransMunchausen parents can decide their child is gillick competent at age four and then set their child up for life for an unachievable life.

Meanwhile the rest of us would go "that's nice darling. Of course you are a dinosaur". And smile at their child's innocence and how they were playing in an age appropriate manner for a four year old.

Of course these parents then have to spend their lives doubling down on their declaration and trying to control absolutely everyone around them and their child.

I was going to say something similar, particularly when I read:

1. Dysphoria is eased when trans people are accepted for who they are, regardless of appearance. But in order to be accepted, they often feel forced to look more stereotypically masculine or feminine.

Someone must have made this analogy before, but, if my child 'knew' that he was a talented singer but was actually tone deaf with no sense of rhythm, how far should it be taken? The family nodding along and telling him how wonderful he was if he sang at home? Letting him give concerts at school and insisting all the children and staff that they can do nothing but praise him? Encourage him join a community choir where the only requirement is to turn up and join in and then when he does solos at the concerts everyone claps because it is the polite thing to do? Have you heard of Florence Foster-Jenkins? Have you heard Helen Joyce talk about how much she wanted to be a ballet dancer?

The assertion that ..in order to be accepted, they often feel forced to look more stereotypically masculine or feminine... is to my mind the equivalent of wearing a costume; one which says 'treat me as if I am the opposite sex', particularly when it is accompanied by instructions about which names and pronouns must be used, and most people, out of politeness, will. It still doesn't mean anyone believes they are the opposite sex.

In the face of some quite assertive borderline aggressive posting, she has kept completely calm and polite. She has tried to explain what she sees in her life, she's not trying to convert or shut down anyone else. In the context of other communication by trans activists, I felt it justified thanking her.

The reactions to my post, on the other hand ....

TransParent's own account, as shown by posts in this thread and others, seems to tell a different story. Her child has not been claiming to be a boy since the age of 4. She does not present as a boy. She does not identify with "blokes". I don't recall any mention of visits to MH specialists (or maybe I missed it). Many posters have asked, again and again, why this mother believes her child is a boy. There has been no answer that makes any sense. And yet she has talked at length of her own issues with gender, and her disappointment at having such a pink and sparkly little girl.

I'm sorry. I started from a position of sympathy, but lost it along the way.

In January they weren't going through anything, because according to them, the only trans people in their lives were part of their extended family, not their own children.

As you’ll see from my PPs on this thread, I have no time for non-binary identities, and do not believe you can change sex. However I draw the line at calling the parent of a trans child ‘abusive’. That is a disgusting thing to say. You have no idea what this mother has been through and you have no idea what you would do if you were in her position. Yeah I’m sure you THINK you know exactly what you’d do, but you’re speaking from a place of privilege, having never been in her situation. A very small minority of people suffer from extreme body dysmorphia, where the only thing that will ease their suffering is “changing sex”, in as many practical ways as possible. The reason behind this is not that relevant - some people believe they were “born in the wrong body”, others believe it’s a mental health disorder (which body dysmorphia is of course). But if you’re a mother whose child’s been telling you she’s a boy since age 4 and you’ve tried to investigate every avenue under the sun to find alternative causes, you’ve seen MH specialists, you’ve gone way past the number of years for it to be a phase. If that child is constantly telling you day after day the only thing in the world that would make them happy is becoming a boy, you’re going to go with it as a last resort. Because if you truly love your child, as most parents do, you would do anything in the world to ease their pain. It’s unfair and ignorant to call this mother abusive, you have no idea what she’s been through.

“ ‘I find women and AFABs – people assigned female at birth – attractive, but don’t think I could have a sexual relationship with one.’

But I thought an AFAB woman who’s become a trans man is no longer a woman Dee? 🤔 So why wouldn’t you fancy “him”, just like you’d fancy any other man? You can’t keep telling us Trans men are men & Trans women are women but have exceptions for when the truth’s inconvenient for you. The TRAs would give you a right telling off for “reducing a person to their genitals” because, as a good trans ally you’re supposed to completely ignore the existence of them. Sounds like you’re only doing the “bare minimum” Dee.

By lumping “cis” women and trans men into the same category you’re basically just admitting its all just pretend, a fantasy that you go along with to satisfy both of your desperate need to be “unique” 🤮

Me too.

I know. She just described my childhood and my DDs
It's so nice to know we're special.

So just to recap, it's not about masculinity or femininity, it's not about thinking you're actually the opposite sex because transparent's daughter doesn't even like 'blokes'. She wears dresses and traditional female clothing, suffers from misogyny and "forced a world of pink glitter" on trans-parent.

But we have to pretend she's a boy and allow men into women's spaces, otherwise they all suffer terribly, and we're bigots.

And everyone, including trans people have to still use all the biological, transphobic meanings of the words men and women, in order to make the linguistic distinctions necessary to provide special treatment.

I mean, it's reeelly not hard to see why people just go nah ha. Quite loudly.

Respect is another one of those weasel words that does a lot of heavy lifting in this debate.

"I respect other people's pronouns" etc etc.

Respect, we can probably agree, is a universal good.

But if I don't use courtesy pronouns, I have automatically been defined by the people whose belief system I do not share (and privately think is bollocks) as "not respectful", which is a BAD thing to be.

Rather than being able to agree to disagree, their novel language system puts me automatically in the position of either agreeing with them, or being A BAD PERSON.

And this is one of the reasons why I will rail against it.

Where is the respect for me and my beliefs? Where is the kindness to me? Where is the reciprocity?

And that's before we even start to unpick what is meant by "respect"? Treat with respect? Does that mean basic politeness/ kindness? Or does it actually mean 'go along with all my demands"?

Or are we talking about actually holding that person in high esteem? Why? I can't force myself to feel "respect" for views I think are batshit, or for the holder of such views (although I can act "as if" I respect them, I suppose). But I don't want to compromise my integrity.

These are all different possible interpretative of "respect" and its not clear what is being demanded.

Its all linguistic smoke and mirrors.

I'm sure someone will shortly trot along to tell me I'm being paranoid and "we all just want to pee" though.

Oh dear TheHereticalOne. The supposed conversion therapy ban is a prime candidate for ambiguous drafting if that is a thing the drafters can do. We will see...

I wish I could agree! Woolly, undefined legislation drafted so widely it could be interpreted to mean almost anything is sadly not uncommon in my experience.

Living in a common law system of binding decisions is some comfort but only for as long as the senior courts remain filled with sensible adults.