Giggle v Tickle Friday 15th May 2pm AEST

People who say men can be women are liars and idiots because they objectively are not and one way or another, everyone shows that they know who the women are. In fact, you admit it in your next post when you argue there aren't enough men who claim to be women for it to be a problem. So you know they're men. Hell, the fact you can understand the concept of Sall's case shows that you know, because only a man could have brought it.

The authoritarianism ("authoritarian mentality", God the pomposity!) is in dictating to women that they can't create a space for women only. Even alongside additional spaces for women and men who want to pretend that men can be women, which would be the actual inclusive and pluralistic option. But you can't afford pluralism when your entire ideology rests on everyone in existence perpetually affirming something that isn't true. Ooh, authoritarian mentality!

Still, if you're right and it's just a silly culture war and it doesn't matter and nobody cares... why are you on here arguing about it, Gretel? Who wastes their precious time on insignificant nonsense that doesn't matter?

But

a) it is dangerous having men play team sports against women

b) physical differences between men and women are substantial, and count in just about all sports - even in pool men have an advantage, as recent court cases have shown. Oh, and winning still matters to amateurs. Why do you think it doesn't? If you read the article I linked to, it says "An amateur women’s football team featuring five transgender players has ignited controversy after absolutely dominating a women’s competition in Sydney." Why should women have to play in unfair competitions?

c) social participation? From teenagers onwards, women already participate less in sports than men; it's girls and women who should be getting encouragement to participate.

d) character building? What character is being built here? The ability of women to accept misogyny and male dominance - because otherwise you'd have to leave the team. And the ability of the males to do whatever the hell they like.

e) if you're still going to say it's fine for transwomen to particpate in women's sports, why not just go the whole hog and abolish separate men's and women's sports? I'm sure the women won't mind. It's for men's benefit the greater good, after all.

Yes I'm sure 0.025% will make all the difference. If you were at all serious about fairness in women's sports access you'd be more concerned about the real barriers like socio economic factors rather than the inconsequential.

How are women supposed to get to elite level if they don't have a level playing field to get there?

And there we have it, the deflection. The tacit admission that you know it's not a culture war, you're just trying to frame it as one when people say things you don't like. As in, the true stuff. As in, your final line, when you get to it: your issue is that you disagree. It's not just a silly culture war then, is it?

Exactly what part of 'values' or 'individuals' don't you understand? Individuals by virtue of being individuals (sorry "liars & idiots") have differing values. Only an authoritarian mentality would think they shouldn't.

Because amateur sports isn't just about 'winning' like elites sports is but social participation, health & character building so physical differences unless substantial or dangerous aren't so consequential.

And there we have it, the deflection. The tacit admission that you know it's not a culture war, you're just trying to frame it as one when people say things you don't like. As in, the true stuff. As in, your final line, when you get to it: your issue is that you disagree. It's not just a silly culture war then, is it?

And so what if some women are liars and idiots? We knew that too. They're still wrong. You claim I'm speaking for women but you know I'm speaking for fact. That's why you do anything - culture wars, not all women agree they should have rights, you don't speak for everyone - rather than attack the facts.

Incidentally, I never claimed to speak for all women, so you stop pretending that I did. Although I'm still definitely speaking for the liars and idiots to have their rights; if they don't want to use them then they don't have to, but they don't get to erase us and destroy our spaces just because they would be happy to compete and undress among men in the additional third spaces none of them will accept while they shout at us about "speaking for everyone".
I'm aware that a lot of women were involved in destroying women's rights like this. Some of them were even women without penises, although plenty of them were... right, Gretel?

Women's rights and factual existence as distinct from men are not an ideology.

Sure, rights are not values themselves, but they are the practical rules that protect and promote fundamental values so rights & values are inextricably linked. While equality is a fundamental value, individuals being individuals vary on how the 'rules' should structured. An example of this is how younger women tend to be less concerned about private women's spaces than older people.

In other words, you don't speak for all women so stop pretending you do.

Maybe not, but why should amateur women footballers have to put up with this?

Certainly Sal Grover & the right take the endless opportunities they are given particularly by right wing media to 'make their case' but alas they aren't able to get traction because their concerns don't connect with most people's experience or their prominent concerns. After every court case Sal Grover & & her fellow travellers are literally everywhere & complain incessantly of the lack of interest so to suggest women can't speak freely is ludicrous.

Women's rights and factual existence as distinct from men are not an ideology. Objective fact is not an ideology. It's like calling it a culture war when one group says 2+2 is 4 and another says it's 5 or whatever number we want it to be because who are you to dictate what numbers are. And that would most certainly have economic consequences. But it wouldn't be a culture war. It would be people who were right against liars, fools and people who want to dismiss the whole thing as a culture war.

You're not going to succeed in trivialising it by slapping this incorrect label on it. You should know that by now.

These aren't elite athletes.

A culture war is defined as an ideological conflict between social groups over fundamental values, beliefs, and societal norms & certainly trans & women's rights fits this mould as opposed economic conflicts/concerns.

Why people may prioritise economic concerns over cultural ones might be because of the consequential impact.

There is the women's football team with several transwomen though, and nothing has changed. I'm sure there are more.

www.news.com.au/sport/football/womens-team-with-five-trans-players-dominates-womens-football-tournament/news-story/481e3242bb1d570de599a38e1f33a7cf

That may be because I don’t think in Australia we’ve had as much of the awful TRA behaviour I seem to see on social media in other countries.

Well, we didn't have it here to start with either. When I first noticed this issue, mumsnet, for instance, was entirely ignored by TRAs. It was noted. Why are they leaving us alone.

The reason was they thought Mumsnet was a place of fluffy headed women who weren't political and so we didn't matter. And as soon as we did, they went nuts.

TRAs get deranged because of pushback. And the more pushback there is, the more crazy they get. They have no argument. Nothing logical or rational or moral. So they have to resort to emotion and aggression.

But it takes a long time to undo the 'be kind, we are the most marginalised, we're vulnerable, help us, you don't wanna be like homophobes do you', attitude.

But because no one cares about women, it doesn't matter what women say. You have to wait for operation let it speak to do its thing.

And because the ideology IS so wrong - dangerous, illogical, sexist, and abusive, it does get push back. In the end.

Everyone is on the same journey, it's just a question of time.

The existencr and rights of women and girls are not a "culture war" and I have to wonder why they are always labelled as such, more so than issues that actually are.

How's the media in Australia? Do they report on this subject? Can women speak freely?

I would say Australians are more a 'live, & let live' mob but draw red lines when rights are threatened in a meaningful way like sports. And that's evidenced in sporting organisations by & large excluding trans women at the elite level here. When it comes to healthcare for minors I would suspect Australians still have a healthy respect for medical associations because they have earned it. The UK system being underfunded & badly managed is like comparing apples & oranges.

The Australian population being only 25 million means that there is a minuscule amount of trans people that wouldn’t even register on influencing people in their every day lives.

A few media outlets are covering it now. Hopefully that will give more the courage to follow suit. In the circles I am in, most people are pretty clueless about the conflict between women’s rights and trans demands. They are very much just ‘be kind’ and inclusive to the poor trans people. That may be because I don’t think in Australia we’ve had as much of the awful TRA behaviour I seem to see on social media in other countries. I think increasing coverage of issues around child transitioning and sports etc is making inroads though and more people are stating to question what they are actually being asked to believe and affirm.

Social media isn't the real world. Whilst in theory most people might agree with Grover most people aren't aware of this 'problem' so don't care enough for their vote to be swung by it. Realistically people prioritise their votes according to concerns that directly affect them here & I think that holds for most other places. It would only make a difference if it was super close maybe.

Not necessarily. Culture wars aren't going to make significant inroads in Australian electoral outcomes given the affordability crisis domination of concern. It will just be seen as a shrewd attempt by the right to distract from their policy shortcomings & its over two years till the next election anyway where this ruling will long be in the rear view mirror.

The laws in question were achieved with bi partisan support btw so Angus Taylor's own party owns these laws. The reason why there's never been any interest in changing them is because its not an issue that has any real world consequences on most people.

I think a great angle for a journalist to take here is that Australia is becoming a haven for these men… case in point - the man who accused Sandy Peggie has now moved here and plenty of people from the US are sharing information about moving to Australia because it’s seen as a sanctuary country for the belief in gender self-ID. I think some publicity around this fact, particularly in the context of nursing, would really get people’s attention.

Good question. I would say the type of sexism in Australia (and there is plenty of it) is predominantly the blokey/alpha male type. Blokes in dresses trying to force their way into women’s spaces does not sit well with that type of man, not because they necessarily care about women’s right to autonomy (although some do I’m sure) but more because it’s a challenge to their own idea of masculinity and is seen (correctly imo) as deviant.