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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Giggle v Tickle Friday 15th May 2pm AEST

644 replies

impossibletoday · 11/05/2026 06:40

Giggle v Tickle
Friday 15th May
2pm AEST
Live streamed

https://x.com/i/status/2053669311504642197

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30
musicalfrog · 18/05/2026 09:58

Thank God for women like those on this thread who spend their valuable time and energy on putting together coherent unarguable facts in increasingly original and creative ways. I can only bask in your gleaming light and cheer you on from the sidelines! Forever impressed on these boards👏👏

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 18/05/2026 09:57

spannasaurus · 18/05/2026 08:54

Which of her talking points is false?

Gosh. An hour has passed and still no answer. I guess AI isn't playing ball.

BabaYagasHouse · 18/05/2026 09:49

Catiette · 17/05/2026 13:34

Do you realise that there were extended periods during women's campaign for the vote when people were arguing in similar ways to those you do, above?

(Many of the arguments overlap so closely that you could mix and match these in a variety of different ways to those I choose below).


1) Women campaigning for this are obstrusive and obstreperous

"endless opportunities... literally [sic] everywhere... complain incessantly"

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 2026)

"All evidence proves that the adoption of woman suffrage brings into evidence the bold, obtrusive woman whose conduct cheapens the sex and deprives all women of a portion of the chivalry and respect which are their birthright."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 1912)

2) We can safely assume on an anecdotal basis that it isn't of serious concern to the majority - and this is, itself, evidence of its relative unimportance.

"Australian people... don't care enough to turn it into an electoral issue."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 2026)

"The majority of the electors opposed to woman suffrage are less zealous on the subject and less certain to register their votes."

"The fact is that the agitation for woman suffrage is carried on by a small minority of the women of the State, who make up in activity what they lack in numbers."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 1912)

3) To build on the above, even more significantly, not all women want this!

"Younger women tend to be less concerned about private women's spaces than older people. In other words, you don't speak for all women so stop pretending you do."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 2026)

"Let any man ask the women of his acquaintance, and particularly the women who are doing woman's work in the world, the women whom he most respects, and he can satisfy himself as to whether women want the right to vote."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 1912)

4) As such, it's unnecessary to democracy, and even arguably undemocratic

"While equality is a fundamental value, individuals being individuals vary on how the 'rules' should structured."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 2026)

There is a suggestion in the argument presented by the advocates of this amendment that in the absence of woman suffrage democracy is a failure. No American woman with a proper pride in the history of her country would advance this contention.

and

"Conferring suffrage upon the women who claim it would impose suffrage upon the many women who neither desire it as a privilege nor regard it their duty to seek it."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 1912)

5) In any case, immediate economic priorities are naturally of greater significance than more abstract issues of this kind

"Why people may prioritise economic concerns over cultural ones might be because of the consequential impact."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 2026)

"It is better for the community that they devote their energies to the more efficient performance of their present work than divert them to new fields of activity."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 1912)

6) Therefore, if women's concerns and arguments were truly authentic, they would focus on the greater good

"If you were at all serious about fairness in women's sports access you'd be more concerned about the real barriers like socio economic factors rather than the inconsequential."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 2026)

She has done her part in the home and not on the hustings, and her power for good is the greater because she has been content to be a woman and has not striven to be an imitation man.

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 1912)

7) After all, it just doesn't have any meaningful day-to-day impact on most women anyway

"I think it is more a reflection on how much this affects a person's life. For the vast majority of women, it is not a day-to-day issue they have to deal with."

"It's not an issue that has any real world consequences on most people"

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 2026)

"Because the women not so represented suffer no practical injustice which giving the suffrage will remedy."

(on women's fight for the right to distinguish themselves as a distinct political demographic, 1912)


I think these parallels are telling, in multiple ways. Plus ça change, eh?

But the main point is, the above were seen as good arguments back then, just as they can be now. And I do see why - people struggle with going against deeply-ingrained beliefs about relative worth, and with prioritising the long-term abstract issues over the immediate concrete ones etc. I mean, it's true, isn't it? The average woman wasn't necessarily immediately and measurably disadvantaged on a day-to-day basis by not enjoying the vote.

However, that didn't mean she didn't need and deserve it, did it? And it didn't stop society coming round to the idea so absolutely that, in the west at least, the above arguments in this context are now seen as patently absurd and offensive.

Really, then, all that these arguments show is how deep and enduring misogyny is.

And in this respect, as with so many TRA arguments, they're actually arguments for women continuing to fight the good fight.

Delurking just to say thanks to Catiette for this post.

Brilliant!

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

(And with a cool line too😎)

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 09:40

I think the misogynistic behaviour of people claiming to be left wing is rather interesting.

Shame women who speak out, say they are whiners, incessantly complaining, and grifters, then declare no one is talking about it, and that there are much bigger issues to focus on. Even trying to shame feminists that any discussion about single sex provisions are distracting from campaigns to stop VAWAG and that in female sports, participation, health and character building is far more important than women and girls having safe and fair sports at all levels.

However, the outcome is that women have remained silent because of the abuse. And are then told they obviously don’t care enough to speak out and show it is a significant concern so that the pollies and mainstream media take notice.

It really is clear when you see it in. and it is DARVO in its nature.

Shedmistress · 18/05/2026 09:31

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 09:11

Oh hey! Howse that, eh?

Sal really makes some male people very upset, doesn’t she? Why is that?

Her Milkshake and all that...

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 09:29

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:01

What part of elected representatives, parliamentary debate, & bi partisan support don't you understand?

If it wasn't what their constituents wanted where was the back lash? Oh that's right, 10 years later when it became a convenient political right wing talking point to avoid their absent affordability policy it 'suddenly' got legs….but 'mysteriously' has no widespread grass roots support.

Just reading this again. Where was the back lash?

I reckon that back lash is what you are now seeing and it is because it is now clear that the change to the Act was detrimental to women and girls. Prior to this, the general public were unaware of the consequences.

Now women are increasingly aware. I don’t think this will be going away despite some groups willing it to disappear.

So where is the backlash? You are only seeing the start of it.

NotBadConsidering · 18/05/2026 09:14

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:01

What part of elected representatives, parliamentary debate, & bi partisan support don't you understand?

If it wasn't what their constituents wanted where was the back lash? Oh that's right, 10 years later when it became a convenient political right wing talking point to avoid their absent affordability policy it 'suddenly' got legs….but 'mysteriously' has no widespread grass roots support.

You said to change it needs voter support. You are admitting it was changed previously without voter support.

Make it make sense 🙄

KnottyAuty · 18/05/2026 09:13

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:01

What part of elected representatives, parliamentary debate, & bi partisan support don't you understand?

If it wasn't what their constituents wanted where was the back lash? Oh that's right, 10 years later when it became a convenient political right wing talking point to avoid their absent affordability policy it 'suddenly' got legs….but 'mysteriously' has no widespread grass roots support.

This is the backlash. duh!

And elected representatives make laws tgat their constituents dont like all the time. That is how democracy works. If they do it too often or in a big way then they pay for it at the next election.

The TRA lobbyists got these policies in through back door deals across the world. They and the politicians were all terribly pleased with their progressive selves. The politicians thought that no one would notice because there would be no impact on anyone…. But… Public awareness of the implications is catching up despite the media not wishing to report accurately.

The dam will burst - eventually the laws will change back. It will take a long time apparently but as you say politicians need voters and if they thought the “tiny” number of trans people would go about their lives unnoticed then they made a serious miscalculation.

Because in all areas - like you here on this thread in fact - TIMs cant seem to help themselves?! There are too many of these chaps who are aggressive (manly even, you might say), and who overstep and make a nuisance of themselves. And it’s not a tiny number - at 1 in 90ish for the under 30s thats a sizeable group thats eroding Womens rights and pissing people off.

People are noticing that it’s not all “be kind” and the laws that changed without full transparency will be questioned and then changed. Thats democracy and while you can talk about the past process, you can bet your bottom dollar tgat this time these policies will get full scrutiny.

No idea what side of history this will be on but it’s definitely going to be on teaching syllabus in n future because this secular religion is total batshit

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 09:11

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:51

Not at all. All the mainstream nightly news channels have just reported on the case sans 'opinion'.

ANTI-TRANS = not giving Grifter Grover extended reign to spout false talking points.

Oh hey! Howse that, eh?

Sal really makes some male people very upset, doesn’t she? Why is that?

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 09:03

spannasaurus · 18/05/2026 08:54

Which of her talking points is false?

I am looking forward to the answer.

spannasaurus · 18/05/2026 08:54

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:51

Not at all. All the mainstream nightly news channels have just reported on the case sans 'opinion'.

ANTI-TRANS = not giving Grifter Grover extended reign to spout false talking points.

Which of her talking points is false?

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:51

Shedmistress · 18/05/2026 08:47

Yes as ANTI-TRANS.

The big old meanie.

Not at all. All the mainstream nightly news channels have just reported on the case sans 'opinion'.

ANTI-TRANS = not giving Grifter Grover extended reign to spout false talking points.

Shedmistress · 18/05/2026 08:47

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:47

False. All mainstream publications including centre & leftist one's have publicised the case whenever it comes up including most recently the outcome.

It's all over social media as well.

Yes as ANTI-TRANS.

The big old meanie.

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:47

Cattywillow · 18/05/2026 08:22

After every court case Sal Grover & & her fellow travellers are literally everywhere & complain incessantly of the lack of interest so to suggest women can't speak freely is ludicrous.”

This is blatantly untrue. Sall has pleaded in very little mainstream media. Sky and the Australian are the only ones as far as I know. She may have appeared on one of the commercial channels last year but that was after years of offering to be interviewed. Most mainstream media is entirely captured and won’t give the GC perspective. And it’s definitely not safe for women to speak their GC truth. It is even less safe in certain industries than others. Just see what is happening to Dr Gillian Spencer and Andrew Amos.

False. All mainstream publications including centre & leftist one's have publicised the case whenever it comes up including most recently the outcome.

It's all over social media as well.

Shedmistress · 18/05/2026 08:46

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:01

What part of elected representatives, parliamentary debate, & bi partisan support don't you understand?

If it wasn't what their constituents wanted where was the back lash? Oh that's right, 10 years later when it became a convenient political right wing talking point to avoid their absent affordability policy it 'suddenly' got legs….but 'mysteriously' has no widespread grass roots support.

We've seen it everywhere, they only ever ask the government funded people who rely on the government funds to comment. Of course they are going to say 'sure, whatever you want'.

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:43

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 08:18

And which part of the fact there was no wide spread public awareness of the change do you not understand? Being published in the guardian is hardly informing the public. Nor was there, by the looks, indepth legal analysis done by either of the parties about the ramifications.

Considering the ramifications to women and girls, the continued attempt to portray it as a right wing fringe issue is just more misogyny in the action of shaming women to prevent discussing it. It is an issue that crosses political boundaries. But do, please continue showing how misogynistic the opposition of protecting female single sex provisions really is.

So there's a 'problem' that was created because of an alleged lack of public consultation in a change of legislation ….but the public still appears to have no awareness of?

Hmmm, doesn't sound like its an 'problem' for them if they don't know about this 'problem' that has 'devastating' effects on women.

Make it make sense.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 08:31

Let’s not forget that if Sal and ‘fellow travellers’ were mentioned by the ABC for a time, they were labelled ‘anti-trans’. That demonisation worked as both a trigger to stop people listening to those women and as a chilling effect.

The number of people I have had discussions with in Australia who when they discuss the issue, frame it similarly as ‘anti-trans’ until you point out just what these women are saying and the impacts is surprising. Once they see the issue, they then don’t discuss it with anyone they don’t trust not to label them as a bigot. Meanwhile, those who are pushing the misogyny get away with it because of the fear factor that has been created by the ABC and the Guardian.

Cattywillow · 18/05/2026 08:22

After every court case Sal Grover & & her fellow travellers are literally everywhere & complain incessantly of the lack of interest so to suggest women can't speak freely is ludicrous.”

This is blatantly untrue. Sall has pleaded in very little mainstream media. Sky and the Australian are the only ones as far as I know. She may have appeared on one of the commercial channels last year but that was after years of offering to be interviewed. Most mainstream media is entirely captured and won’t give the GC perspective. And it’s definitely not safe for women to speak their GC truth. It is even less safe in certain industries than others. Just see what is happening to Dr Gillian Spencer and Andrew Amos.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 08:18

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:01

What part of elected representatives, parliamentary debate, & bi partisan support don't you understand?

If it wasn't what their constituents wanted where was the back lash? Oh that's right, 10 years later when it became a convenient political right wing talking point to avoid their absent affordability policy it 'suddenly' got legs….but 'mysteriously' has no widespread grass roots support.

And which part of the fact there was no wide spread public awareness of the change do you not understand? Being published in the guardian is hardly informing the public. Nor was there, by the looks, indepth legal analysis done by either of the parties about the ramifications.

Considering the ramifications to women and girls, the continued attempt to portray it as a right wing fringe issue is just more misogyny in the action of shaming women to prevent discussing it. It is an issue that crosses political boundaries. But do, please continue showing how misogynistic the opposition of protecting female single sex provisions really is.

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 08:01

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 07:50

I know NotBad, I was there too and it most certainly didn’t get public media debate.

The fact that there was little opposition to it also meant it wasn’t widely discussed. If it was widely discussed maybe someone would have twigged about the repercussions of the change. It is a mess

What part of elected representatives, parliamentary debate, & bi partisan support don't you understand?

If it wasn't what their constituents wanted where was the back lash? Oh that's right, 10 years later when it became a convenient political right wing talking point to avoid their absent affordability policy it 'suddenly' got legs….but 'mysteriously' has no widespread grass roots support.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2026 07:54

I think this was the case in other countries too. The Dentons doc etc advises flying under the radar to get policies and legislation through, after all. It’s long been a TRA tactic.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 07:50

NotBadConsidering · 18/05/2026 05:06

Gosh. Well, I don’t remember there being any interest from voters in 2013 around change in the sex discrimination act that happened. I mean, maybe I missed it but I don’t think I did.

You didn’t miss it. The SDA was changed without consultation and certainly without asking the voters. So it can certainly be changed again without asking the voters.

I know NotBad, I was there too and it most certainly didn’t get public media debate.

The fact that there was little opposition to it also meant it wasn’t widely discussed. If it was widely discussed maybe someone would have twigged about the repercussions of the change. It is a mess

Helleofabore · 18/05/2026 07:42

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 05:40

Well, I don’t remember there being any interest from voters in 2013 around change in the sex discrimination act that happened.

Oh yes they were:

"Voters were not consulted via a direct public referendum or specific ballot when the Sex Discrimination Act (SDA) was amended in 2013. Instead, Australians were consulted indirectly through their elected representatives, parliamentary committee inquiries, and public civil society submissions managed by the Australian Parliament House. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
The Sex Discrimination Amendment (Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Intersex Status) Act 2013 was enacted after a thorough legislative consultation and review process:
Inquiry Process: The Australian Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee reviewed the proposed Sex Discrimination Amendment Bill 2013 in early 2013.
Public Submissions: During the committee inquiry, dozens of public submissions were received from civil rights advocacy groups (such as the Law Council of Australia and various legal centers), religious organizations, and state bodies.
Parliamentary Debate: The bill was debated in both the House of Representatives and the Senate, where members represented the broader views and feedback of their constituents before ultimately passing the legislation. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
Ultimately, rather than going to a general public vote, the changes to the SDA were driven by parliamentary processes and lobbying by civil society organizations, which led to the legislation's passage into federal law. You can review the details of the Act directly on the Federal Register of Legislation. 1, 2]

All that means was that it was tabled in parliament and voted on and interested campaign groups wrote in to support it.

There was no significant discussion about it specifically in media and it wasn’t driven by a long campaigning process from the public . So unless people were watching the tabling of the bill, or knew about it because they were with the lobby groups, it wasn’t something the public knew about.

You can keep posting that copy and paste, but if doesn’t mean there was any specific consultation about it where the public was made aware specifically of what was happening and what all the ramifications were to them.

Gretel346 · 18/05/2026 06:11

EmmyFr · 18/05/2026 06:02

Well, you literally said "comparing suffrage to modernity is ludicrous" in reply to a post comparing women's rights to vote to women's rights to have male-free spaces. If this doesn't mean "modernity" is in your eyes the abolition of such spaces, pray, what is it?

You seem confused.
The context of that discussion was whether I was using the same talking points as the anti suffrage proponents were. My point was even if my talking points were the same the conditions weren't nor was the substance of claims by the suffragette movement so using the same line of resistance is irrelevant.

EmmyFr · 18/05/2026 06:02

Well, you literally said "comparing suffrage to modernity is ludicrous" in reply to a post comparing women's rights to vote to women's rights to have male-free spaces. If this doesn't mean "modernity" is in your eyes the abolition of such spaces, pray, what is it?

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