Looking for a gym with female-only changing rooms by sex: a journey

Exactly what part of that bar graph do YOU not understand? 4.6% of same-sex attracted men charged with violent crime, compared to 2.4% of same-sex attracted women. I also note in that quote that you keep posting over and over

Among females, lesbians (including only a few females with exclusively homosexual preferences) were generally more criminal and violent than heterosexuals, although they were still less so than males (except for homosexual males)"

It states criminal and violent, rather than just violent. The majority of these criminal lesbians could be committing tax fraud for all I know. You are also ignoring that the majority of trans women are not homosexual. According to surveys carried out among the trans population the majority of trans women are either bisexual or exclusively attracted to women, so the crime rates of gay men are neither here nor there. Also you keep stating that prison stats are not good enough to suggest that this particular subset of males are just as much (or more) of a risk as other males, yet provide no evidence at all that they are a significantly lower risk. Your whole argument seems to boil down to women should just take these men at their word when they insist they're no threat.

Exactly what part of "except homosexual males" don't you understand???

Can you please stop with this. The evidence you linked to yourself showed that this isn't true.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02902-9/figures/2

And telling men that claim they have a particular sense of self that they need to stay out of women's spaces just like all other men is not an 'injustice' ffs.

Ah yes, thanks for reminding us - it’s an important point.

There are a number of examples of judges letting trans identifying men (or ‘transwomen’ as you said) walk free instead of jailing them so the figures for incarcerated sex offenders who are trans identifying males will appear lower than it actually is. It is already quite a bit higher than other men.

There are also reports that trans identifying men in female prisons have had sex in the communal spaces, stared at women in the showers and sexually harassed them with little or no sanction. In a couple of documented cases, the woman complaining has been punished. This particular chap (below) has finally been put back in a men’s prison after sexually assaulting a woman in prison.

And it also doesn’t count the men that would have been charged with crimes like voyeurism or indecent exposure in places where if a man claims a trans identity the crime is overlooked and the woman told to ‘be more inclusive’ (or other such nonsense).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glne43101o?app-referrer=deep-link

I think it is always important to go back to the original source, which says this:

”Criminal activity, particularly violent crime, is much more common among men than women in the general population. A previous study of all applications for sex reassignment in Sweden up to 1992 found that 9.7% of male-to-female and 6.1% of female-to-male applicants had been prosecuted for a crime. Crime after sex reassignment, however, has not previously been studied. In this study, male-to-female individuals had a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls but not compared to male controls. This suggests that the sex reassignment procedure neither increased nor decreased the risk for criminal offending in male-to-females. “

Rape was not studied and yet this interviewer asked Dhejne specifically to confirm rape statistics. Of course the fucking answer will be ‘no, we didn’t measure that’. It was also irrelevant because the study shows a general pattern of criminality and specifically ‘violent’ crime.

safeguarding decisions are not based on only rape statistics so this focus on it is not actually proving the point the some male people should be included in female single sex provisions over 8 years old. However, the prisoner statistics show part of the decision making critieria - which is that risk that cannot be ignored.

And again, the Swedish study did not show that group of male people had a rate of committing crime at the same or lower than the general female rate of committing crime. Meaning they should not be considered ‘female’ at all for crime risk assessment.

I suggest you do your own investigations and calculations and stop relying on misrepresented opinion pieces.

You conveniently left out the most salient point:

"Among females, lesbians (including only a few females with exclusively homosexual preferences) were generally more criminal and violent than heterosexuals, although they were still less so than males (except for homosexual males)"

Your'e welcome.

Great, you agree that a majority of sexual offences are committed by males towards females in private spaces which includes public toilets, changing rooms and hospital wards

Would you also agree that it is then impossible for a female to be able to tell the difference between a transgender woman and a sexual offender as sexual offenders are males that enter female spaces, therefore causing discomfort and fear for the female that can only be avoided by the exclusion of males from private female spaces?

@EmilyinEverton The point is we don't know if they are the same risk or not & given that lesbians commit violent crime at a higher rate than gay men its not so clear

This claim has been made at least twice on this thread and should not be allowed to stand. As PP have said, the data you posted does not show this. The violent crime percentages for gay men are higher than for lesbian women.

The report also states:
In all of these analyses, both male groups have significantly higher crime rates than both female groups.

“Because offending & incarcerations aren't the same. Most sexual violence not being reported skewers the data for how many males commit it therefore it's not possible to perform an accurate comparison with sexual violence trans women. The evidence is we have no accurate data on offending & we have plenty of survey evidence of underreporting of sexual violence.”

So, the general expectation is that all male people commit sexual offences at a much higher rate than incarceration.

Why then do you and others expect that male people with a transgender identity are not committing sex offences at the same rate as the rest of the male population and not being reported or imprisoned.

Therefore, this argument that it is incarceration vs offending will show the pattern is unchanged in that aspect.

However, you missed the important point.

There is no indication at all that male people with transgender identities in the UK committed sex offences at the same rate or less than the general female population.

It is actually irrelevant whether one group of male people commit sex offences at a slightly less rate than other male people. Safeguarding policy is based on risk profiles for whole categories of people that can be defined such as sex category.

Therefore male people are all excluded over the age of about 8 years old. No exceptions. No special groups. Because not one female person in a publicly accessible single sex provision should have to make an instant risk assessment of the male person in front of her as to whether that male person is going to cause her harm or not.

And the discrimination to women for including any group of male people? How does that work?

Because the discrimination aspect does work both ways. Discrimination to other male people (which was not tested as such) and the discrimination in allowing a group of male people into a female provision when that then discriminates against female people.

Can you back up the statement that "homosexual men commit violent crimes to a lesser degree than homosexual women" ?

I find that very interesting. My understanding was that while there is not much reliable research in this area, that what there is suggests that homosexual men commit fewer violent crimes than heterosexual males but that this is still at a higher level than for women. I'm not sure about comparing with the subset of homosexual women but if compared with all women, the level of violence amongst homosexual men is still quite a bit higher

The recent ruling regarding the Good Law Project v the EHRC did find there was “scope for a strong argument” that allowing a trans woman to use a female toilet did not amount to discrimination against biological men so I'm not so sure about an illegitimate discrimination claim holding.

No. The equality act that was in place from 2010 till 2025 permitted it. In any case, where the laws that changed are irrelevant to the research if no increased reporting was found.

The data you are referring to is inaccurate as it concerns incarceration not offending. Nor could there be any accurate conclusions made about trans women offending because their numbers as a community are too low to be statistically significant.

I'm not in the mood for pigeon chess, but isn't it astoundingly homophobic to say that gay men have effeminate bodies? Not merely behaviour (which is also a ridiculous claim to make about the group as a whole), but their actual bodies. That they are physically not fully male.

I thought that nonsense went out with skull measuring.

But very elderly women do not commit around 97% of all sex crimes, including voyeurism and indecent exposure.

Neither do trans women.

The data you are referring to is inaccurate as it concerns incarceration not offending. Nor could there be any accurate conclusions made about trans women offending because their numbers as a community are too low to be statistically significant.

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but I live in one of those US states people are fleeing from due to genocidal violence (using the correct facilities for one's sex and not changing biological sex on government paperwork) and the law hasn't changed anything. They're still in our restrooms and changing rooms because chain businesses are too afraid of negative social media campaigns getting their franchise taken away, and small businesses are afraid of review bombing. Opening up third spaces have been great for trans-identifying women and people who get itchy teeth using either sexed restroom, but the males refuse.

I hope you find somewhere, but don't count on official policy meaning anything. Use a few day passes before spending your money on a membership.

My apologies try this:
https://www.bostonindicators.org/article-pages/2018/november/transgender-public-accommodation

Your request is unreasonable in my view because as I showed different minority groups of men like homosexuals offend at different rates so its unfair to classify all men as potential sexual predators. Its like saying all muslims should be banned from migration because a particular group of them from a particular locality in Africa practice FGM.

Also anyone who understands anything about sexual violence is the only precondition a sexual predator needs is an isolated environment to commit abuse. IE they don't 'need' permission to conduct their heinous acts. So I suspect that's the reason why you won't see an increase in reporting if laws change because permission was never the ssue.

But very elderly women do not commit around 97% of all sex crimes, including voyeurism and indecent exposure.

Neither do trans women.

Yep. It’s always the same from the “be kind” lot. They really aren’t very kind in their behaviour towards some members of society (“eewwww, who wants to see old women’s fannies”).
What they really mean is, be kind to Men.

Yep, identical script. Borg mentality.