Looking for a gym with female-only changing rooms by sex: a journey

Michael Foran makes a good case that a non-trans man excluded from a 'woman + TIMs' facility but provided with a perfectly acceptable alternative could have a case for discrimination.

The gist of it is that segregation, even if facilities are equal, would be unlawful discrimination. (Obvious if you think about the shameful history of segregation by race.) You need an exemption in the EA(2010) to segregate, and you don't get that exemption if you are providing a 'women + TIMs' facility.

Hopefully I have not mangled the argument too much. It is towards the end of this article:
https://knowingius.org/p/good-law-project-appeals-failed-review

Edit to reduce mangling of argument

Lots of gay men seem to have a very heightened level of disgust for female bodies...certainly more of an 'ick' factor than women tend to have for male bodies.The barely disguised contempt is apparent in many drag acts.

Yep. It’s always the same from the “be kind” lot. They really aren’t very kind in their behaviour towards some members of society (“eewwww, who wants to see old women’s fannies”).
What they really mean is, be kind to Men.

Another.......Isn't this what most women want from a gym?

"We are a whole new concept in women’s fitness and well-being. We are from another dimension, not just a fitness studio, our small luxurious boutique is tranquil, bright and sophisticated, built for women by women.We welcome you to visit our boutique to fully understand our ethos, see and try our equipment, meet and enjoy the company of like-minded women.

For ladies who prefer to exercise in a women only environment offers a dedicated gym. The gym is fully equipped with a range of user friendly equipment including cardio machines, weights and a stretching area. An induction will show you how to use the equipment according to your fitness goals.

Our gym is run by qualified female gym instructors who are always on hand to answer any questions, carry out a fitness check and offer help and advice. Our boutique gym is supportive and motivating; and a place where women can ensure their fitness experience is enjoyable and rewarding"

Yeah why would 'very elderly' people be more unpleasant to look at than anyone else. I suppose by very elderly she means over 50. 🥴

Yep, identical script. Borg mentality.

Some large chains have women only spaces/rooms and/or sessions too:

Why we created a Women’s Workout Space?

"At ** we believe everyone should feel good when they work out. Feeling comfortable, confident and supported makes a real difference to how training feels — and how consistent it becomes.

Our annual report highlights women are three times more likely to experience gymtimidation than men. A dedicated Women’s Workout Space offers more privacy helping to reduce that feeling of gymtimidation and create space to build confidence at your own pace.

These spaces can also feel more comfortable and accessible for women from different cultures and religions, giving more freedom to train in a way that feels right.Because when you feel good in the space you’re training in, everything else becomes easier"

I think this thread and another thread are demonstrating Reddit's new line of argument regarding the prison stats. It is not a credible argument.

I followed a link to a study they posted themselves. It doesn't seem to be true at all that lesbians commit violent crime at a rate higher than gay men. Here.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02902-9#ref-CR47

They all say for 'women only.'....and that seems to mean women only.

Example:

"Are men allowed in the gym?

No. We are a women's only gym which means that men are not permitted on the premises even if they are not training. From time to time it may be required that a man has access to the gym for essential maintenance work. We do our best to avoid this but if it cannot be helped we do let our members know via Instagram and email ahead of time. If this ever impacts your ability to use the gym please let us know and we can pause you're package for the duration of the disruption"

“Because offending & incarcerations aren't the same. Most sexual violence not being reported skewers the data for how many males commit it therefore it's not possible to perform an accurate comparison with sexual violence trans women. The evidence is we have no accurate data on offending & we have plenty of survey evidence of underreporting of sexual violence.”

So, the general expectation is that all male people commit sexual offences at a much higher rate than incarceration.

Why then do you and others expect that male people with a transgender identity are not committing sex offences at the same rate as the rest of the male population and not being reported or imprisoned.

Therefore, this argument that it is incarceration vs offending will show the pattern is unchanged in that aspect.

However, you missed the important point.

There is no indication at all that male people with transgender identities in the UK committed sex offences at the same rate or less than the general female population.

It is actually irrelevant whether one group of male people commit sex offences at a slightly less rate than other male people. Safeguarding policy is based on risk profiles for whole categories of people that can be defined such as sex category.

Therefore male people are all excluded over the age of about 8 years old. No exceptions. No special groups. Because not one female person in a publicly accessible single sex provision should have to make an instant risk assessment of the male person in front of her as to whether that male person is going to cause her harm or not.

You can't handle aged skin? So nudity as long as it's in a young skin is ok then?

Perhaps you should concentrate on getting changed and your own routine rather who else has got their clothes off.

What a silly comment. I’m sure it’s been said to you ten times over but do you really think that is a comparison? Do you really think women who don’t want men in their changing rooms, feel this way because they don’t like how the man looks? Astonishing.

The so called "nonsense" which you refer to are the actual statistics provided by the Ministry of Justice with regard to offending rates in England and Wales.
It would seem, that you are unable to stomach the truth.

Are they women only or "women" only, though?
There's a "women" only one in my city.

I've identified quite a few women only gyms in Liverpool, where I live. I'm sure there must be others in every other big city.

And the discrimination to women for including any group of male people? How does that work?

Because the discrimination aspect does work both ways. Discrimination to other male people (which was not tested as such) and the discrimination in allowing a group of male people into a female provision when that then discriminates against female people.

I've also not seen such insistence that gay men are "effeminate" since maybe the 1990s 😅

Good luck finding a gym that allows you your privacy and safety, OP. Sorry your thread has been hijacked by someone with an agenda and way too much time on his or her hands.

You realise that a legal clarification doesn't change the law in any way?

The clarification was necessary because some groups were ...obscurificating the law to try and twist it to their desired ends.

The fact that the supreme court put an end to this game - which was always pretty transparent, how could any legal protection apply to 'anyone who feels like having this legal protection'? - didn't change any laws. Much as you may like to pretend it did.

Can you back up the statement that "homosexual men commit violent crimes to a lesser degree than homosexual women" ?

I find that very interesting. My understanding was that while there is not much reliable research in this area, that what there is suggests that homosexual men commit fewer violent crimes than heterosexual males but that this is still at a higher level than for women. I'm not sure about comparing with the subset of homosexual women but if compared with all women, the level of violence amongst homosexual men is still quite a bit higher

That's because the activities of organisations such as Stonewall presented falsities as fact - and nobody bothered to check out the veracity of this.
I suspect many people ( including children) have been led towards a path of 'transition' under the illusion that transwomen were actually women ( TWAW) and as such could access women only facilities.

That nonsense was completely debunked in the very same parliament.

Criminality
"In response to questions 38 and 39 Prof Freedman referenced “a well-known Swedish study” to imply that patterns of criminality are the same amongst trans women as they are amongst cis (non-trans) men. In her response to Q40 she alleged there were “Swedish studies” (plural). Additionally, Prof Stock referred to “male patterns” when talking about criminal behaviour in her answer to Q26.
I understand the “Swedish study” to be a single 2011 article published by Cecilia Dhejne and colleagues[1], in which the authors reported on mortality, suicidality, psychiatric care and conviction rates among individuals who transitioned in Sweden between 1973 and 2003. This study is widely but inaccurately cited by anti-trans groups on social media as evidence that trans women retain “male patterns” of criminality, an error repeated by Profs Freedman and Stock.
Dhejne herself rejected this interpretation explicitly in an interview with Cristan Williams of TransAdvocate in November 2015[2]. I attach the full relevant extract in Appendix B. A key point she makes is the study is “certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk” to cis women. Additionally, the study was not focused on investigating criminal behaviour, was drawn from a small cohort in one country, and only indicated a statistically significant increased risk of conviction for trans people who ‘underwent sex reassignment before 1989’:[3] a time when fewer opportunities and resources were available to trans people in Sweden, which may have resulted in increased criminalisation in a similar manner to other stigmatised groups. The authors therefore conclude that the best outcomes occur when individuals also receive long-term health and social care support in addition to any hormone therapy or surgery that they might require."

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/21023/html/

I’ve not seen the alleged criminal proclivities of lesbians and exhibitionism of elderly women get so much traction on a thread before.

Transwomen in prison in the UK, have the highest demographic for sex offences. There are 76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen - 58.9%. There are 16.8% of males who are sex offenders and 3.3% of women who are sex offenders.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/