Male "autism" and abusive behaviour

Just because someone is neurodiverse, doesn’t mean they can’t also be an arsehole. A lot of people forget that.

Same. I got diagnosed after my kids coz in the 80s girls didn’t have autism or adhd. Apparently.

im autistic with adhd. And all my kids have various combinations including PDA. And I don’t act like this person.

And this cannot be stressed enough, the amount of autistic people including autistic men who would never ever dream of behaving in these ways is significant. I work in STEM lots of autistic men and most of them are absolutely the other end of the spectrum from what is being described but I do know of others who fit this bill so closely and just for clarity DD is autistic and does have female autistic peers who have similar behaviour patterns.

The thing is, certain behaviours and patterns just are absolutely obvious. Not exhaustive, and not universal, but there’s a great big Venn diagram with whopping big overlapped areas.

Trains. Obsessive play when very young.
I didn’t know what I was noticing, but I was noticing things very early with DS. Certain behaviours were just baked in. I wish so much I’d had my current knowledge back then.

Not neat, not binary, but there is a ‘thing’ we’re observing or describing. What we do about of course is something else.

@TranscendThis Control of other people does not seem to me to be an ASD behaviour. Control of an environment, yes. I think if someone is manipulating people to control them then it isn’t because of ASD. @SpiderPlantBoogie in your shopping example, he really needs to be getting his own stuff if he’s going to be fussy. That’s the pushback we all need to get better with, imo.

My grandfather was by all accounts an unpleasant man who made life hard for my mum and grandma. ND? Maybe. ND traits without a doubt. But the healthy dose of misogyny was the real problem.

I'm sure I’ve read about children babies with significant ASD being traumatised by infancy, as they don’t take comfort from touch and may not understand a lot of their experiences. I know DS had a few traumatic experiences at my hands, before I learned how to do better. So many ND people may also have trauma just from being ND in an NT world, or from having parents completely unable to meet their needs- possibly ND themselves.

X post with you @NewNameOldGame

I decided long ago that I didn’t care why my person with (undiagnosed) autism was doing what they were doing. I only cared about the effect on me. I can’t control what and why they do things.

im autistic with adhd. And all my kids have various combinations including PDA. And I don’t act like this person.

Selfish men will find all sorts of things to use against other people, whether they are autistic or not.

My main concern is teaching people how to hold their own boundaries in the face of other people’s needs.

Many people have needs. It isn’t my responsibility to facilitate them, or meet them. I get to choose.

I suspect that there’s a certain amount of trying to live up to expectations, doing a god awful job and making yourself miserable/ill trying.

But when the diagnosis penny drops, you have to find a better way to be with the new insight that you have, rather than just assuming everyone around will pick up after you.

That’s what I regularly nudge DH towards- Lean into your strengths. Try not to trample all over me in your hyper focus. Apologise when someone points out you’re being rude.

As he’s become less stressed, he’s been so much easier to live with.

I've got the Alexa-alarm going on behind me, so need to scoot off. But wanted to say how your first para here has got me properly intrigued.

My mother also may have had autistic traits - my brother is on the spectrum - had a very traumatic childhood, and ended up a vicious narcissist (guess who was the Scapegoat?).

I'm reading this thread because of the overlap I see between NPD behaviour and the behaviour of people with autism, ASD and ADHD.

So, thanks for giving me food for thought.

With PDA ( something I believe often associated with intelligent Autistic males), the need for autonomy and control is pervasive. In my experience, I see this includes control of other people through manipulation. I'm seeing this in my teenager and it is very upsetting and also it's a worry.

Thanks for your post, OP. I'll be following it.

I have often wondered about the overlap between people with autism and people with NPD. I've know both in my life, and have noted the parallels between the self-ishness of the people with NPD and the self-ishness of people with autism.

Nope, it’s a totally reasonable perspective. What happens if she dies? Does he just continue to not parent? Or hand it over to someone else?

I think someone can be abusive and have ND traits or be ND and have challenging behaviors that can be considered abusive and require behavior modification. If these behaviors are happening does it matter if it’s autistic rigidity or abuse? The outcome is the same for those impacted by the behavior?
I say this as someone diagnosed and medicated for ADHD. With a diagnosed Autistic DS and likely Autistic DH.
People who have agency and are mentally competent can choose how they behave. They can have an urge to do something that would cause harm and not carry out that action. For example my DH has part of his routine that he has a bath. But he can cope without one for a night or too. At the more extreme end DS needs time alone to decompress. But if he is really needed he will come and help. He hates to be touched but if I ask him he will hug me. Or accept a hug given advanced warning after a long time apart.
Love at its core in the family is sacrificial - we give up some of our immediate wants to tend to those of the family member. Sleep for babies, time for children, etc etc
Part of being human and living in a society is accepting that our behavior has an impact on others. And to modify our behaviors sometimes so we can live together in harmony. I think that can be harder for ND people and those with ridgid routines and behaviors. But it can be done.
Personally I think abuse is abuse and it doesn’t matter if the perpetrator is ND or NT. It’s still abuse. Intent also matters but that is more difficult to discern.

Hmmmmm indeed

Though to be fair he was pretty rubbish previously!

@womendeserveequalhumanrights - I worry about the message with are giving young girls and boys, but mostly girls, about what is acceptable to ‘put up with’.

We need to be teaching that it’s ok to have boundaries!

So he was capable of basic tasks and parenting before diagnosis and he's not now? And the only thing that's changed is the diagnosis? Hmmm......

This is a really interesting debate.

I have a friend who’s long term partner has been diagnosed with ADHD, and since this point he’s become on one hand a great advocate for ADHD experiences but also incapable of basic day to day tasks and parenting. The strain on her is immense and he has, I quote from her, ‘regular incidents of dysregulation’. During this time she has to take action to keep herself and her DC safe.

I am sorry, as much as I want to support her and him, this is not acceptable.

Im finding it very difficult to be supportive and know this is a ‘me’ issue.

This is exactly what I see in my Dd's school, unfortunately. She is really fed up that some children 'get away with being bad' because they have 'special needs'. One of her best friends has ASD and she can see the difference between his behaviour (sometimes not coping very well, but never malicious - he has brilliant parents who are doing a fantastic job supporting him) and a child that is an out and out bully, deliberately, and gets away with it.

At some point expecting all the other children to just put up and shut up no matter how awful the impact on them becomes almost encouraging abusive behaviours.

OP, you were asking about reading...have you read "The Age of Diagnosis", Suzanne O'Sullivan, a neurologist? Many may find it problematic...but she makes some salient points..

my theory is that my mother may have started out with autistic traits which combined with a childhood trauma, and a strong desire to fit in and be normal (masking/denial) now manifests NPD.
I think it’s fascinating and I see the same/similar pattern in other family members. It’s also awful.
there is something vulnerable and self aware in a person gently asking for considerations for their autism but narcissists get what they want using different methods.
I also worry that we have set up a generation of over diagnosed autistic young people and children to fail by diagnosing and accommodating them to such a great extent that some of them start to believe themselves to be special and expect that the world should and will bend to them.

I feel utterly abused and now traumatised by the behaviour of my teenage ND son towards me. It's usually behind closed doors, enabled by an equally abusive, I suspect ND father, ( my ex) who I see alienating teenager against me more and more with each week. So yes - I see a connect here.

I'm also interested in this. My ExH is almost certainly autistic, but he is also an alcoholic and an emotional abuser and the former does not necessarily lead to the letter. After a fair amount of reading on the subject, I think he is more borderline psychopath really (Though I am not a professional) - no willingness/ability to understand things from another point of view, no empathy for anyone, complete disregard for rules/laws/social norms.

When he set fire to our house (as a punishment for me trying to leave after 30 years of patiently supporting him) he was arrested for arson and tried to build a defence based on his being "autistic", it didn't work and he got 18 months, and I have a 15 year no contact injunction.

My DD23 is also probably autistic. She certainly has some mental health and anxiety issues (Though much improved in the last few years and is now working full time - so proud of her) - she has said of her dad's autism, "well yes, I am autistic too, doesn't mean I act like an arsehole as a given"