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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Who was a gay man"

90 replies

noblegiraffe · 24/04/2026 11:57

I've been reading quite a lot of responses to Rowling's post about her trans friend and this one has made me think a lot because it wasn't even something that registered when I read her post. It's 'transing away the gay' in action, and I'd not even noticed. I strongly doubt Rowling meant it that way either, so I think it is a perspective that deserves a wider audience.

"I’ve been thinking about this and I hope this reply makes sense.

Firstly - I get it. I understand that a gay man might be a friend and his desire to be called she (hence his performance which does help with that) is something a friend might do. I also understand that this doesn’t mean you think he’s “lesser” - because obviously, women aren’t lesser so that’s not in your thinking. I also get the kinship feeling that happens with men like him - and the massive “othering” that happens from our (other gay men) side.

That said, you are referring to a gay man as “she”. You also said he “was” a gay man.

He still is. You can’t make someone not gay in the same way you can’t make someone not a man - who is a man.

And the effect of “who was a gay man” immediately provokes a very strong emotional reaction in me. “Was” a gay man. Ergo isn’t any more. It’s hard to explain but seeing any gay man described as effectively “ex gay” is unavoidably alarming to me.

Also, while again, the intent is not to denigrate - I know that, because there’s nothing inherently lesser or undesirable about “female coded energy” - that energy is found much more in gay men than straight men. It is really important to me to make sure people understand gay men are as much men as any other men. Every single one.

And the effect of even one exception - within “gay man world” - is to continue the problem we have with our perceived “femininity”. Plenty of gay men already reject men they consider “feminine” (and I don’t mean camp here i mean the soft gentle men) and those men are the most vulnerable to incorrectly concluding they are “better off” as mimics of women.

This is never the case. While I would never force people to undo surgeries and hormone treatments they are now healthy on, going forward we should I think be advocating for “no one is better off as a mimic of the opposite sex”, and “disguising attributes as opposite sex” should be off the table.

And so I will never call another gay man “she” again. I won’t call a straight one she either but people who make an exception nearly always do that for soft, gentle gay men - and I know it’s not malicious, not homophobic and not because they see these men as “lesser”. It’s because they recognise kinship. I understand that.

But my reply is because this is what keeps a certain pressure on gay men, especially the soft gently younger ones to start questioning “am I also “better off” as a “she””. It’s effectively wider “social transitioning” which isn’t neutral. It’s not a zero impact choice. There is some impact.

Because you’re also not using “she her” for him - for his benefit - he’s not here? I means granted he might read it but - the effect is to tell me you don’t consider this gay man to be a gay man anymore. On account of traits and mannerisms he has - that a lot, or even most gay men have in some degree. (I have no words for this “gayness” - it’s not female like but it is… definitely a thing).

This isn’t about the you-him relationship because the language is third person. This is about the you-reader or if I’m speaking to you the you-me relationship.

It’s not the worst thing ever™️ but it matters to me to say why I don’t think it’s a good idea to make any exception - especially because it influences the gay man world to continue to “other” those who are deemed “soft and gentle” - or even “ethereal” sometimes - and for those gay men to continue to believe they are “better off” changing themselves to look like women."

https://x.com/duncanhenry78/status/2047291489294639527?s=61&t=U9XrcF693-JpMxeIueYG7g

Duncan (@DuncanHenry78) on X

@jk_rowling @surreykiwi @tonymc39 @theglassfish13 I’ve been thinking about this and I hope this reply makes sense. Firstly - I get it. I understand that a gay man might be a friend and his desire to be called she (hence his performance which does hel...

https://x.com/duncanhenry78/status/2047291489294639527?s=61&t=U9XrcF693-JpMxeIueYG7g

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 24/04/2026 13:53

BusyAzureTraybake · 24/04/2026 13:34

It's hard to read subtlety on an X post, but I think he is suggesting that 'she' is often applied by gay men to a particular type of gay man. Then when the straight community also use 'she' for that man it is no longer an in-group mannerism, rather a suggestion that that type of man is not a 'real' gay man in some sense. The woman-identity then leads from that.

I kind of feel that this is a gay man trying to describe something that is going on within and adjacent to the community and I felt it was important to listen to him, being neither gay nor male myself.

I think there's a lot of things going on.

Masculine gay men may see feminine gay men as 'lesser' (probably a bit of misogyny involved). They may refer to them as she.

Feminine gay men may not feel like they belong in the group 'gay men' and are in the wrong body so transition.

Women who agree that it is not possible to change sex and who do not refer to other trans women as 'she' nonetheless see the 'femininity' and don't feel any cognitive dissonance in referring to a feminine gay man as 'she'.

Which reinforces the idea that a feminine gay man not really a gay man but is at least a trans woman.

Which puts pressure on other feminine gay men.

OP posts:
BusyAzureTraybake · 24/04/2026 13:50

TransMother · 24/04/2026 13:44

I don't disagree with @noblegiraffe 's points. It's a bit "thin edge of the wedge"? isn't it, to accommodate a trans person's personal choices. Which might or might not indicate a wholesale acceptance of trans ideology.

But people are nuanced and hopefully allowed to be nuanced.

As a parent of a trans identifying child (in their 20s actually) I absolutely do not believe or encourage the belief that my child has changed sex (they also don't believe this). But in the name of love and to preserve a positive relationship, I acquiesce to the opposite sex pronouns.

Maybe if it were a friend rather than a family member, I might hold more strongly to my personal GC beliefs. But IMHO some relationships are worth "sacrificing" an element of personal principle.

But I'm not a public figure whose every word will be analysed by the masses, so my personal balance of biological truth vs trans ideology is only going to questioned and fretted over by me.

This thread is about the response that a gay man has made to JKR's post. Do you have any comment on his views, as outlined in the OP?

TransMother · 24/04/2026 13:44

I don't disagree with @noblegiraffe 's points. It's a bit "thin edge of the wedge"? isn't it, to accommodate a trans person's personal choices. Which might or might not indicate a wholesale acceptance of trans ideology.

But people are nuanced and hopefully allowed to be nuanced.

As a parent of a trans identifying child (in their 20s actually) I absolutely do not believe or encourage the belief that my child has changed sex (they also don't believe this). But in the name of love and to preserve a positive relationship, I acquiesce to the opposite sex pronouns.

Maybe if it were a friend rather than a family member, I might hold more strongly to my personal GC beliefs. But IMHO some relationships are worth "sacrificing" an element of personal principle.

But I'm not a public figure whose every word will be analysed by the masses, so my personal balance of biological truth vs trans ideology is only going to questioned and fretted over by me.

BusyAzureTraybake · 24/04/2026 13:40

noblegiraffe · 24/04/2026 13:22

Reclaiming the slur?

I have tended to read it as containing an element of self-hatred.

BusyAzureTraybake · 24/04/2026 13:34

Raquelos · 24/04/2026 13:14

Interestingly, I have a lot of gay friends who refer to each other as she, with no expectation of it being considered a trans statement; it is just a mannerism of some gay communities. Kind of a deliberate underlining of their otherness from straight men. It is mildly fascinating to see it continue unaffected by the trans insanity.

It's hard to read subtlety on an X post, but I think he is suggesting that 'she' is often applied by gay men to a particular type of gay man. Then when the straight community also use 'she' for that man it is no longer an in-group mannerism, rather a suggestion that that type of man is not a 'real' gay man in some sense. The woman-identity then leads from that.

I kind of feel that this is a gay man trying to describe something that is going on within and adjacent to the community and I felt it was important to listen to him, being neither gay nor male myself.

noblegiraffe · 24/04/2026 13:22

Raquelos · 24/04/2026 13:14

Interestingly, I have a lot of gay friends who refer to each other as she, with no expectation of it being considered a trans statement; it is just a mannerism of some gay communities. Kind of a deliberate underlining of their otherness from straight men. It is mildly fascinating to see it continue unaffected by the trans insanity.

Reclaiming the slur?

OP posts:
Raquelos · 24/04/2026 13:15

Chersfrozenface · 24/04/2026 13:05

I suppose that is for him to decide and not really the business of strangers.

My question was more rhetorical than anything else.

He's still a man because humans can't change sex - he doesn't get any choice in that.

On this we agree 🙂

Raquelos · 24/04/2026 13:14

BusyAzureTraybake · 24/04/2026 13:09

I don't think it is part of a pile-on, so long as we look at the general principles rather than the individuals involved.

I did actually post that piece on the other thread yesterday, because the gay man's perspective was something I had never considered before.The repeated use of 'she' may contribute towards a gay man feeling that he is not accepted and would be better off as a 'woman', with all the horrors of 'gender-affirming care' that involves. The 'she' contributes to the 'trans-identification', it is a cause not an effect. Just as Cass identified that it is not a neutral act for children, it is not for adults either.

Interestingly, I have a lot of gay friends who refer to each other as she, with no expectation of it being considered a trans statement; it is just a mannerism of some gay communities. Kind of a deliberate underlining of their otherness from straight men. It is mildly fascinating to see it continue unaffected by the trans insanity.

BusyAzureTraybake · 24/04/2026 13:09

I don't think it is part of a pile-on, so long as we look at the general principles rather than the individuals involved.

I did actually post that piece on the other thread yesterday, because the gay man's perspective was something I had never considered before.The repeated use of 'she' may contribute towards a gay man feeling that he is not accepted and would be better off as a 'woman', with all the horrors of 'gender-affirming care' that involves. The 'she' contributes to the 'trans-identification', it is a cause not an effect. Just as Cass identified that it is not a neutral act for children, it is not for adults either.

Chersfrozenface · 24/04/2026 13:05

I suppose that is for him to decide and not really the business of strangers.

My question was more rhetorical than anything else.

He's still a man because humans can't change sex - he doesn't get any choice in that.

noblegiraffe · 24/04/2026 13:05

Raquelos · 24/04/2026 12:52

Yes, fair point. I am just wary (and already weary) of the pile-on to JKR over her comments, I suppose

There's a bit in Harry Potter about the bravery it takes to stand up to your friends, more so than your enemies, so I would hope that she wouldn't mind a challenging thoughtful reply. You'll notice that at no point did he say that he was disappointed in her, as other people have done.

I think it is really interesting that she was very clear that she didn't consider her friend to be a woman, but gave no thought to saying that he was no longer a gay man, and that it didn't register with me either.

OP posts:
Raquelos · 24/04/2026 12:52

noblegiraffe · 24/04/2026 12:47

Provoking thought isn't the same as correcting it.

Yes, fair point. I am just wary (and already weary) of the pile-on to JKR over her comments, I suppose

noblegiraffe · 24/04/2026 12:47

Raquelos · 24/04/2026 12:43

I suppose that is for him to decide and not really the business of strangers.

I refuse to get too worked up about this tbh. I think it is a mistake to try to police the nuance of specific compromises people choose to make in their personal relationships. Much more important are the broader principles that JKR has consistently demonstrated she understands and has been brilliant and steadfast on. If there is one thing we can usefully learn from today's cesspit of progressivism, it is that purity spirals never strengthen a movement. I don't think we can afford to indulge ourselves in one over this.

Provoking thought isn't the same as correcting it.

OP posts:
Raquelos · 24/04/2026 12:43

Chersfrozenface · 24/04/2026 12:11

I hadn't picked up on that, but it's a very perspicacious point.

He "was" a gay man, implying that he no longer is. So what is he now?

I suppose that is for him to decide and not really the business of strangers.

I refuse to get too worked up about this tbh. I think it is a mistake to try to police the nuance of specific compromises people choose to make in their personal relationships. Much more important are the broader principles that JKR has consistently demonstrated she understands and has been brilliant and steadfast on. If there is one thing we can usefully learn from today's cesspit of progressivism, it is that purity spirals never strengthen a movement. I don't think we can afford to indulge ourselves in one over this.

Chersfrozenface · 24/04/2026 12:11

I hadn't picked up on that, but it's a very perspicacious point.

He "was" a gay man, implying that he no longer is. So what is he now?

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