No rape took place outside Epsom church, claim police

As I said, you put yourself in a dangerous situation too.

The crime data coming out of some European countries is suggesting that there are differences as certain demographics are over represented compared to their overall numbers.

For specific types of sexual offence, e.g. gang rape, that sounds likely. But overall, taking into account all the contexts, all the diffent methods men use to abuse? I'd be surprised if that data existed given how many rapes and sexual assaults are not reported, given how skilled men are at keeping CSA hidden, given how normalised rape becomes in abusive relationships.

If men with cultural beliefs or normalised behaviours that say that women are subordinate to men, are of less value to men or that it is ok to rape us are found to represent a higher risk to women then the solution is to not accept these men into our country (or at the very least detain them securely while they are here and being assessed).

But western men also have cultural beliefs and normalised behaviours that say that women are subordinate to men, are of less value to men and that it is ok to rape us. The details look different, obviously, and it's perhaps less overt (although the 'manosphere' stuff seems to be emboldening a lot of adolescent boys and young men) but huge swathes of white British men think that women are basically there for sex and domestic labour. They may not say so out loud in mixed company but their actions, their expectations of their wives and partners, show that they do believe that.

Loads of British men think it's fine to rape a woman if she flirts with him or if they're in a relationship or if she's drunk. Probably most think it's fine to visit lapdancing clubs or use prostitutes. The vast majority use porn at least occasionally and the porn just keeps getting more violent, more extreme, more degrading for the women. Logically these men must know that they're likely at some point to end up wanking to a rape. It doesn't spoil their boner because they don't really care.

At the same time, I'm not convinced that sex offending is more common overall in any particular demographic group of men.

The crime data coming out of some European countries is suggesting that there are differences as certain demographics are over represented compared to their overall numbers.

The details will always be fine grained and culturally specific and if we are to detect and prevent sexual abuse we need to be on top of that and not shy away from naming differences.

Yes, this is very important. There are some groups where it is always going to be very hard to prevent sexual abuse, like abuse from partners for example. Abuse of children by members of the clergy has been addressed by improving safeguarding and reducing opportunity.

If men with cultural beliefs or normalised behaviours that say that women are subordinate to men, are of less value to men or that it is ok to rape us are found to represent a higher risk to women then the solution is to not accept these men into our country (or at the very least detain them securely while they are here and being assessed).

To @PencilsInSpace

For crime prevention purposes it must be recognised that there are distinct groups of men who have different drivers for their criminality which may be related to their cultural values or to behaviours normalised in their societies. We need to be able to talk about this openly as the police and government obfuscating the issues we clearly know exist just increases public concern.

Absolutely, and as well as different drivers, distinct groups of men have different methods of offending, but I think divisions such as British nationals / foreign nationals, or broad brush ethnic groups, are far too crude to capture the details. E.g. the British Pakistani rape gangs do not operate in the same way as rapists who are recently arrived asylum seekers. The former invest a lot of time and money grooming young girls, building a network of brothers, cousins, uncles, building an infrastructure of houses to take them to etc. The latter just grab a woman off the street and, if they work together, it seems opportunistic rather than organised gang activity. British men who rape their wives and children in the home operate differently from abusers in the church, who operate differently from the networks of wealthy powerful men, who operate differently to the paedophiles who glom onto the gay movement etc.

The details will always be fine grained and culturally specific and if we are to detect and prevent sexual abuse we need to be on top of that and not shy away from naming differences.

At the same time, I'm not convinced that sex offending is more common overall in any particular demographic group of men. I think it's a minority of all of them, backed up by a majority of all of them who don't really give much of a shit about stopping it as long as it's not happening to their women.

There's nothing wrong with advising women to not get so drunk,you can't look after yourself because there's always an a-hole who's going to help himself. Trust nobody.

Thanks. Since this friend consistently put herself in dangerous situations, I tried to tell her not to. Didn't work. Another time she went to stay in a house in Spain with two blokes she'd just met. That went badly too.

Stand Up To Racism is one of their charitable offshoots, who have received money from various levels of government.

I assume this is another one of those "they should be quiet for the sake of diversity" posts?

"and get a free house before you and me"

Right, so firstly it was the 'we are grandmothers...' sentence that was racist, but you couldn't explain to me why.

So then you pivot to the 'free house' poster which you say is 'suggestive' of racism.

Then you went on a googlehunt to find other stuff to agree with your thesis.

The SWP, even if you ignore the undercover cops in their leadership, have quite an extensive track record of covering up rapes in their organisation.

If you're going to big up "Stand Up To Racism" or whatever the SWP are calling themselves this week, you should be aware of what kind of people they are.

Or maybe none of that matters, and unions funding their campaigns and Labour MPs appearing on their platforms is no big deal, because being "left wing" gets you off the hook for all sorts of things.

"and get a free house before you and me"

That kind of exaggeration/invention of the benefits received by asylum seekers is very suggestive of the fearful fictions of racism.

And, moving away from their own page to a New Statesman article about them, how about:

One woman who knew I was a journalist added me to a WhatsApp group titled “Pink Protest” ... I saw messages calling migrants “c*s” and “feral oversexed dirty inbreds”. “Iv [sic] just watched a scruffy looking Pakistani man… looking really shifty,” one woman wrote. “I followed him with the dogs.”

One man regularly seen with the Pink Ladies is Callum Barker, a former member of ethnonationalist party Homeland, a splinter group from neo-Nazi Patriotic Alternative. Barker helps the women set up equipment, Minihane said. On Barker’s views, she said: “They’re a little bit more extreme than mine.” He was only 22, she said. He could be her son. “He’s so respectful. He’s such a gentleman with all the elderly ladies,” she said. “He’s very much a nationalist, very patriotic.”

And what don't you like about women being concerned about those things?

This caught my eye
We are grandmothers, mothers, sisters, and daughters who are deeply concerned about the future of our country, especially in light of mass immigration and, in particular, illegal immigration

a quick look at their web page suggests they are a grassroots organisation of racists.

What, in particular, caught your eye?

Say whaaat now?! The Socialist Workers' Party is a state-paid organisation???!?!!

And, well, perhaps the pink ladies are a grassroots organisation, but a quick look at their web page suggests they are a grassroots organisation of racists.

Interesting that there was a Pink Ladies protest yesterday in Westminster and suddenly we had the Stand Up To Racism (aka Socialist Worker's Party) out with their pre-printed placards "Stop the far-right".

You can tell that the Pink Ladies is a grass-roots campaign, whilst the opposing side are professionally (state) paid organisation.

I know it's a bit of a derail, but I've genuinely never understood this aspect of feminism. A man does something awful to your friend. One of the ways you try to help your friend is by making suggestions that might minimise the chance of it happening again. Feminists: WHAAHH. YOU'RE BLAMING HER.

Unnecessary

I'm not sure about deliberate suppression of evidence or reluctance to pursue certain nationalities/ethnicities.

The Home Office was very open about its concerns over organised Romanian crime networks and has successfully closed some sex trafficking operations, working with Romanian authorities.

I do think there's too much emphasis on the wrong kinds of 'sensitivity' within police forces, though it seems to be getting better by fits and starts.

I suspect the Home Office is nervous about publishing data on the ethnic/national breakdown of offenders, because it might lead people to have bad thoughts, and this would have a bad impact on community cohesion. And if police forces sense the HO is nervous about publishing the data, that's a pretty strong incentive to not collect the data in the first place.

Of course how that works in practice is, everyone assumes the cops are being shifty and dishonest, so if they don't say "the suspect is a white man" lots of people will jump to conclusions. And after the "Welsh choirboy" business, I'm not surprised.

Shabana Mahmood seems to understand this, but Starmer is under considerable pressure from Labour MPs to sack her before she does anything about it.

'UK born' doesn't mean born outside the UK.

'British' doesn't mean 'White'.

60.1% of Londoners are British born: UK plus Irish.

46.2% of Londoners identify as other than 'White'.

Please make up your mind whether you're complaining about people born in places beyond Britain, people without British or UK nationality, or people with brown skin!

Or all of them, but then clarify that.

.......................................................

Again FWIW, it could be true that brown-skinned men, and/or perhaps men originating from certain countries or of certain religions, may be over-represented in sex crimes. Some groups may be over-represented as victims. It would certainly be useful to have solid information on this.

However, we need to bear in mind that if 46% of London perpetrators had brown skin, or 40% were born outside Britain, they would be proportionally represented.

If they are proportionally represented, 37% of the perpetrators would be white British; this would increase if more Londoners were white UK natives.

I agree we need the stats. As I understand it, the Home Office committed to collecting this data a few years ago but has been stymied somewhat by all the emphasis on 'identity' and various perceived conflicts with equality requirements.

100% agree. The government should be able to use this as the most effective way of easing public concern.

It is most telling that they don’t.

My point was ‘British origin’ as opposed to people whose families originated elsewhere who have subsequently acquired their British national citizenship.

’White British’ are 36.8%.

I assume that ‘UK born’ also includes people with families from British overseas territories who gave an automatic right to be here so I am not commenting on the merits, just the facts as it is pertinent to the previous Metropolitan Police figures.

Don’t you think other people like you might have thought you were silly and reckless and inviting trouble just for walking home on your own in a foreign country on an unlit country road? Even if as thankfully didn’t happen, you were raped? It wouldn’t have been your fault then, and it isn’t your friend’s fault now.

I'm not convinced by your reasoning. The data does not show that 82% of gang rapes in London were perpetrated by foreign nationals.

That’s on, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. If anyone manages to produce better data I’m open to being corrected.

They're not recent immigrants particularly. Some are but many were raised in the UK and quite a few are 2nd generation.

Ok, we could call them unassimilated migrants in order to differentiate. The men of Pakistani origin in the rape gangs clearly have maintained a set of cultural values which for them, were a key aspect of their offending. Their victims report that being white was a main factor in them being targeted. I think it is unhelpful to categorise such men in with men of British origin for statistical and crime prevention purposes. In some areas the level of offending by the rape gangs could well skew the statistics.

According to the figures, there are approx 70,000 rapes reported per year (although this is thought to be low compared with actual rapes). The number of victims of the Pakistani grooming gangs is hard to pinpoint due to repeated government and police failings.
There are a suspected 80 towns and cities affected and in the areas already looked at like Rotherham (1400 victims) and Telford (1000) recorded. If these areas are indicative, and we take the mean, that is 1200 x 80 = 96,000 perpetrators but if the experience of ‘Penny’ is anything to go by - she was raped by “hundreds” of men many times so that makes numbers so vast it’s horrifying. Obviously not all of these rapes are on the national statistics because of the police failures but some will be. it is a shame that even after all this time, ongoing failures in government has failed to stop or deal with this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpvxr7wv74mo?app-referrer=deep-link

For crime prevention purposes it must be recognised that there are distinct groups of men who have different drivers for their criminality which may be related to their cultural values or to behaviours normalised in their societies. We need to be able to talk about this openly as the police and government obfuscating the issues we clearly know exist just increases public concern.

I was covered in very deep cigarette burns, which actually burned through my skin into my flesh. By the time I was 13 and a half, I weighed six stone (38.1kg). I was abused every day," Penny, which is not her real name, said.…
…Even though some of her perpetrators were convicted of rape and trafficking, Penny said "hundreds of men" who abused her remain free to do what they want.
"There are lots and lots of men who were involved with us who have never been brought to justice. I imagine that if they had those sexual tendencies then, they'll still have those tendencies now and they'll find a way to fulfil those tendencies," she said.

FWIW, I agree that demographic changes now mean ethnicity, nationality, religion and sex should be accurately recorded for all interactions with police - suspects, victims and witnesses. You can't get a clear overview of what's happening without clear information.

The police, like other authorities, currently record 'identities' rather than facts, and I would love to see this die a sudden death. How people understand themselves matters to them personally but has no place in general analysis.