Can't believe I'm writing this, but disappointed in JK today

She’s clear her friend hasn’t changed sex, that her friend is a man. There’s no confusion.

But she uses she to refer to her. Perhaps as gay men have referred to each other as ‘she’ while knowing exactly what sex they are.

What if you are an atheist but are happy to call a friend Reverend Jones?

Have you betrayed the atheist movement or been hypocritical? I don’t think so. I think there has to be room on the GC side for people to think and speak as they see fit, even if others on the same side choose differently.

I think she's demonstrating that the fight for women's rights isn't personal. If men stay out of female spaces then we are happy to go along with their name choice.

It's pretty much what we've always said. Clothes and a name change does not change your sex but sometimes that doesn't matter.

We want the law to protect us in those circumstances where sex matters - changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, etc.

The rest of the time sex doesn't matter.

There's only one group as far as I can see who's insisted on #nodebate - and it's not GC women.

We're not a hive mind and we all have varied experiences and views. Most of us have seen our views change over years - and that's because we listen, think, debate and discuss.

Anyway - welcome to Mumsnet and all that. I've no doubt this thread will run and run.

Absolutely and no fucker gets to tell me what pronouns I use, particularly when they aren’t even there! No one gets to tell me what pronouns to use for other people either. No one gets to get me fired or take me to court.

If JKRs trans friend has insisted on pronouns, I doubt JKR would have used them. It’s a choice she’s made, as is her right.

And it’s ok to disagree with it. That’s your right.

Noone is doing that.

How do you protect female only spaces if you don't accurately define what female is? How do you keep that clear if you describe men as 'she'?

Language matters.

I prefer not to insult people I know to their face.

If they choose to cross dress and use a strange name, so what.

All I care is that they respect my spaces

Its called being a grown up
and where we have to get back to when gender goes away again

She could have kept her friendships private. But she didn't in this case. I wonder why.

I agree with you op.

By doing this she's saying that a man can somehow earn the right to be referred to by female pronouns by behaving a certain way, which a lot of people do seem to expect. If we all work with that framework that means when the rest of us don't use female pronouns about some other trans identifying man, he can then insist "what, don't you think I'm female-coded enough, how dare you imply that".

It's basically putting some kind of judgement call on pronoun use that is based on perceived behaviour rather than actual biological fact.

I disapprove greatly. (I mean I'm sure JKR doesn't give a monkey's what a random mumsnetter thinks but neither does anyone in the public eye and I still have opinions about what they say too.)

It's possible to agree with 95% of what someone says and does, and disagree with the other 5%

She is a woman, an individual, with friends.
She has done great work standing up against bullies and funding to protect women and help them get justice.

The fact that she has a trans identified friend, who she thinks of with female pronouns, doesn’t undermine that. If she was supporting her friend into women’s spaces, saying ‘no trans allowed, except my friend’, then I’d agree. But that isn’t what she’s doing.

I am cool with that. It’s a respect thing. You respect your not actually female and don’t overstep boundaries and I am happy to call someone she on an individual basis.

Sigh. Yes, the ‘she’ and ‘her’ stick in the craw a bit but let’s not forget that JKR is still a legend and has done so much for women.

I just wish gay men would live free and proud as gay men without this insulting encroachment.

I don’t know why she’s pandering to it but her war record far outstrips my corporate cowardice so I’m in no place to criticise her.

Nope. It's not arguing for compelled speech. It's arguing for telling the truth.

No sorry I think you’ve misunderstood, or maybe this is a goady reverse? She has always been fine with trans people doing what they want to do, because the definition of a trans person is someone living as the opposite gender they were born in, right? All of us grew up accepting people wanted to present differently, like Eddie Izzard back when he was funny/cool and Dame Edna etc - we’re all different and some people feel better like that. where it crossed over to forcing everyone to believe that they have changed sex is where the line was drawn, because a) it’s not possible to change the sex genes of every cell in your body, obviously, and b) some people abused that by insisting that they should be allowed privileges that are deliberately reserved for sections of society who might really suffer from being forced to share those privileges with the opposite sex. And those people were and still are in some cases very visibly violent in their language, which made everyone scared to speak up. Maybe you should listen to The Witch Trials of JK Rowling, which is an investigative podcast which explains what she said better than I am doing. No-one needs to hate trans people to be GC, they are two different things

I didn’t love the “female-coded energy” as it plays into the hands of those who’d claim that being female is some sort of mystical feeling as opposed to pure biology.

But I respect her for standing up for her friends, and I couldn’t give a shit what pronouns one friend uses for another - as long as I’m not compelled to use them.

And as a PP pointed out, there’s a world of difference between policy and personal relationships.

I'm with you OP. The only way forward is with honesty all round.

How do you know he insists? I don’t think he does. He certainly didn’t used to.

Not everyone does. Some people are quietly doing what they feel they need to. Not compelling anyone, campaigning, not in women’s spaces, just quietly trying to get by.

Obviously there are many, many TRAs, narcissistic, abusive and LOUD. They frame the debate with their aggression and invasiveness.

One of the things that JK Rowling is great at is nuance.

It is really incredibly important that female only spaces are protected. We don't have to hunt every individual trans woman with a pitchfork if they're respecting our boundaries and not trying to elbow in on places where it impacts us in a way that's beyond just irritation for the staunchest of those in the GC movement.

I will use pronouns based on what I see unless I’m asked to use something else and then I will make an attempt to get it right for them

I think you’re completely wrong, op. You’re arguing for compelled speech.

I really don't think we all have to agree on everything.

I admire what JK has done and is doing in this sphere.

Will I have differences of opinion with her view - of course - show me any two people who agree on everything.

I think it's a good thing to have a wide bandwidth of viewpoints on this if they are generally pulling in the same direction.

If we insist on purity of thought then I think we will fail to achieve the general aims of retaining womens' spaces.