Aren't transpeople still a tiny minority?

The point you are spectacularly missing is that trans people and TRAs need to campaign for third spaces.

And when they do we will support them. Donate to their crowd funders even.

But it's not up to us to do this on their behalf.

We (well, most of us) are not their mums to step in and tidy up their mess.

The talk on FWR is about protecting women's rights, women's legal and social identity and women's spaces because that is what is being threatened by TRAs' political and social demands.

Stop the demands, stop the threat, and there will be no need to keep focusing on why those demands and the "identities" that drive them are unreasonable and unfair.

This is surely obvious, no?

Wow the privilege just drips out of you.

I can tell you that plenty of people in those "Northen Towns" you are so dismissive of still deal with being broken into, as indeed do plenty of people in the forgotten parts of London. Of course, these are the parts of London where people who "write about" important things like the Global South don't tend to live, although the people who clean their offices or deliver their parcels often do (and indeed often came from the Global South)

And - just reread your post before I hit send - Jesus Christ did you just say that since rape is hardly ever prosecuted now it might as well just be legalised???

"Moreover, the fact all members of this group of friends identify as trans suggests that social contagion is playing a role"

They met at trans swimming....

Doesn't the fact that your trans-identified child and all his trans friends from swimming are all autistic make you stop and wonder just why so many who identify as trans are autistic? Could it be that, rather than being an inherent characteristic, identifying as trans is a way of dealing with autism? Moreover, the fact all members of this group of friends identify as trans suggests that social contagion is playing a role here.

In that case, shouldn't we be extra careful when diagnosing "gender dysphoria" and giving kids puberty blockers (I know this is being curtailed in many countries now, but not everywhere, and it has been done to excess), encouraging social transition and having surgeries? Many autistic children and adults will be caught up in this and may make irreversible changes to their bodies that might make sense at one point in their lives but may make little sense in 20-30 years.

I understand the annoyance at the activists, they really messed things up and it will be hard to reverse the situation. But they are also the ones who helped spread the idea of identifying as trans, which autistic people and all the other people who identify as trans to cover up other conditions and traumas have latched on to. If it hadn't been for the trans activists, your son may never have identified as a girl.

I worry about people who think validating sexism is ok because it's less important than hospital queues.

It's not ok.

You may not have the time or focus to fight that battle and I respect that, but please do not devalue women by saying sexism isn't even that important in the grand scheme of things.

Just as ignoring small acts of everyday racism creates a climate where big acts become acceptable, ignoring small acts of everyday sexism creates a climate where women's needs and voices are generally understood to be less important than men's.

Mixed sex toilets in public areas like bars and restaurants are grim. Even in really nice places, they are noticably ickier than the previous women-only iterations.

Men don't realise because the gents have always been grim so mixed sex single occupant cubicles that women at least tend to leave clean are a massive upgrade for them, but you can't get away from the fact that yet again women's provisions have been degraded to accomodate what men want.

And if these men are vulnerable, they should be treated exactly like other vulnerable men.

Take away the suggestion that these men should ever be treated as women and the whole issue ... goes away.

Accomodations can be made for those who need them. Within their own sex provision.

Let's bin the magical thinking and work towards listening and mutual respect and actual solutions that enable privacy and dignity for ALL. Which doesn't include putting a sick trans woman on a ward full of men or forcing a trans woman into the men's toilets if they feel unsafe. We need gender neutral 3rd spaces that provide human dignity and respect the way people live.

a 3rd space definitely indeed, that doesn’t mean putting a male on ward of sick women, or allowing a male into female toilets and making the females who are using them feel unsafe and allowing the females dignity and respect.

Fair point!

Let's bin the magical thinking and work towards listening and mutual respect and actual solutions that enable privacy and dignity for ALL. Which doesn't include putting a sick trans woman on a ward full of men or forcing a trans woman into the men's toilets if they feel unsafe. We need gender neutral 3rd spaces that provide human dignity and respect the way people live.

Transwomen don't want third spaces they want access to us and ours.

Would you feel the same about "common sense" if instead of the opposite sex, the thing that society was being asked to accept was living "as if" someone were a different race, or from a different country, or had a different job? I can certainly see some of the autistic men I know embracing living "as if" they were a doctor or a lawyer, if society told them it was a legitimate and reasonable thing to do. Not to work as a doctor or a lawyer, but to believe themselves to be and so introduce themselves as such, and to converse with people and give opinions on topics of law or medicine expecting to be accorded the same weight as an actual lawyer or doctor's opinions.

Or perhaps living "as if" one were French? Dressing a little stereotypically French? Putting on a French accent? Talking about holidays visiting "Maman" in "Pareee"? A bit cringe but harmless... until a French person moves in next door and you have to explain why being French is totally fine except in front of M. Bernard.

And if those things are not ok, then why are women worth less?

For anyone with cognitive processing difficulties (including women with brain fog via menopause, like me) asking them to change the entire way they've used language their entire many decades of their lives is not a reasonable ask. I actually think asking me to do a cartwheel every time I saw someone would be equivalent - actually better, as I'd only have to (attempt to) do that once.

I also think asking some autistic people to lie is problematic and placing a bigger burden on people who struggle to not tell the truth.

Not arguing but language is important we have tall women short women black women white women loud women quiet women and Transwomen. There should never be a space as trans is not a type of woman. It's not a description of a woman it's a category of men.

Excellent post

In English pronouns for people are sex-based and based on the observation or knowledge of the person speaking. Unlike names, they are not something you individually learn for each person you meet.

This bit in particular strikes me. When did we come together as a society and decide to overrule all this? Because I must have missed that big debate.

The other thing I would say, where I think young people are being failed (and their families) is that things like changed pronouns are coercive demands. It is not kind to tell young people that such a lopsided coercive and frankly abusive approach to relationships with others is healthy. Because it's not.

Why would you hang out with someone who has you walking on eggshells around language when there are many other people you could be friends with who don't do this, who don't make coercive demands?

For anyone with cognitive processing difficulties (including women with brain fog via menopause, like me) asking them to change the entire way they've used language their entire many decades of their lives is not a reasonable ask. I actually think asking me to do a cartwheel every time I saw someone would be equivalent - actually better, as I'd only have to (attempt to) do that once.

In English pronouns for people are sex-based and based on the observation or knowledge of the person speaking. Unlike names, they are not something you individually learn for each person you meet.

Asking people to change pronoun use is about as easy if I demanded everyone substitute the word 'dog' for 'the'. See how far you get before you make a mistake. And that's the exact point imo, no-one - even the most extreme TRAs - can do it right for long. And then they have to self-flagellate for wrongspeak like we're in some Orwellian dystopia. We've seen the hilarious spectacle of those who hounded women out of their jobs and livelihoods (or tried, thinking of Jo P who has a rather fitting name) unable to stick to preferred pronouns in court. Because it's hard to do, even if you want to. It's an unreasonable demand and it's coercive to then imply anyone who can't do it is a bigot.

It leads to very, very unhealthy relationships. With one side making unreasonable demands and the other (even if they want to follow the unreasonable demands) living in fear of getting it wrong.

But there isn't a neutral "middle ground", not as long as you keep using female language for men.

Because any such "middle ground" that recognises these men as "women", "she", "can't be Harry so must be Helen" necessarily involves at least some degree of social acceptance that these men, these "trans women" actually are legitimately closer to women than other men because of their minds.

I get that you may not like to hear that is sexist, but it is. It is fundamentally sexist. So you are never going to find a fair place if you insist any way forward has to include validating it.

The real way forward is not to say "we'll ok, he's not really a woman but if it makes him happy, we'll sort of pretend he is" then try to square the impossible circle of doing that without taking space, resources or visibility from actual women and without accidentally endorsing social stereotypes that hurt and limit women.

The real way forward is to say, not just to your son but as a society to all trans people, "this thing you feel is real and valid, but it is not being the opposite sex and we can't keep calling it that. So let's go back, forget the labels for now and describe the actual feelings you are experiencing so we can create new languages and spaces for you."

Third spaces yes if the gap between "trans" people and others of their sex truly means a subdivision within sex, or across sex, is what is needed, but under new names not as a half way house for people who believe they occupy these fake places between men and women that do not in reality exist.

Correct use of language cannot be underestimated.
Take the use of language when referring to trans-identifying people. It has been shown that the general public may be confused about the terms used.
For instance, when reading the term
'Transgender woman'; you might think 'hmmm what is that woman identifying as?
Even by stating 'trans woman' it may be gathered that this is a woman.
But these terms are crucial to men wishing to be seen as women, to give the illusion that they are a simply 'women' as long as that vital word is there, that after all, is ours.
Trans identifying men is better but I do think that can confuse too.

Transpeople don't want 3rd spaces. Well actually, I'll change that. Trans-identifying men don't (generally) want them as they don't offer the same validation. You know, peeing with the other girls.

Additionally these unisex, mixed sex whatever spaces, are much less safe for women and girls. Probably messier and dirtier too.

Posters who come to start these threads, often with faux naivety, must think the women of FWR are daft! It has all been seen, said, read before; many times over.
There's an abundance of intelligent women on FWR who have read the evidence, pored over stats, marched the marches, attended meetings, signed the petitions etc
Heck, some on FWR are science based!!!!

All standing up for women and girls.
All the ploppers and runners won't change that

Diverze- I doubt if anyone hates your child, but language is important.
How can women and girls be protected if we are including men and boys in using female terms?

I really appreciate you using accurate language. Genuinely. Thank you.

They both know that women do not, that is why they listen to men who identify as women and not to women.

More than that ‘cis-gendered’ in transideology mean women who identify with ‘woman-gender’, in other words a woman who identifies with the very source of our oppression. I reject the whole idea of ‘woman-gender’ as a regressive oppressive sexist construct that should be destroyed.

Ed Davey knows a woman can have a penis. So does Zack Polanksi.

So? I don't see your point. Are you saying it is so entrenched now that there is nothing you can do? Are you saying that he is an adult now, so there is nothing you can do?
Would your attitude be the same if he was identifying as a 6 year old?

He was 16 when he first experienced gender issues as 23 when he finally told us. Hth.