Aren't transpeople still a tiny minority?

It is not the sign on the door, it is the women in the space. That is why it was not enough for Dr Upton to use the female nurses changing room, he wanted Sandie Peggie to undress in front of him too.

Trans people have the right to present as they wish subject to the very few rules on dress and slightly more rules on public behaviour that we all have to adhere to.

What they do not have is the right not to told that other people find their appropriation of the opposite sex's reality as some sort of social costume morally ugly and offsensive.

Again, this 100% can be done. Just not under the word woman, or with female names and pronouns.

Because women are real people with our own needs and challenges, and we need our own social, cultural and political voice.

It is not OK for people with genuine needs but at heart different needs with a different root cause, whether this is ASD or something else, to use our reality as a social metaphor for whatever it is they are really feeling.

You would I am sure not expect people to be tolerant had your son adopted a racial persona as his metaphor/source of meaning, because you would recognise that while his motivation and belief in that identity may be entirely innocent and genuine, the experience of people who truly are that race is so unrelated to your son's conception of it that it is an insult to them and a racist act in itself for him to claim to be it.

Yet you seem to think women should accept his needs and accomodate his belittling insult, albeit unintentional, with accommodation and sympathy.

An unintentional insult, the first time at least, perhaps deserves education and explaining rather than immediate anger. But it should not be treated as acceptable.

But if they can do that, why can't they just go in the right rooms that time too? It can only be for validation via a sign on a door.

Meanwhile, the ladies runs the risk of masterbating men leaving their evidence in the changing cubicles (run across that myself more than once in 'changing villages')

TheKeatingFive
It's perfectly acceptable for women to dress in a more male coded way - so that has to apply across sexes I think.

I think that's a 'Discuss in 3,000 words or less' essay title, to be honest
The reasons why it is socially acceptable for women to dress in a male-coded way but not the opposite are complex, and include status - in a society where male-coded =high status, and female=low status, females crossing the code are referring to a high status which is socially harmless because they will never have the higher status of men.

Men crossing the dressing code have been seen as referring to a lower status, and therefore not socially acceptable, and associated with fetish or some kind of 'aberration'.

All of that should have been thrown out decades ago in a bonfire of the gender stereotypes, but I suggest that 'men dressing in women's clothes' as in female-coded clothes is still less socially acceptable than 'women dressing in men's clothes'.

I'm not saying that I agree with that, I'm just saying that there isn't a 1:1 equivalence, and men dressing female-coded clothes is still a bit... questionable.

If they are wearing female-coded clothes plus other things like wearing make-up, calling themselves by a female name, and using the women's toilets, the clothes take on a different significance.

That is an enormous caveat

I agree that the term "trans" is unclear. I think the umbrella term muddies a bunch of different things and confuses rather than clarifies.

It can mean gender stereotypes, a fetish, discomfort with one's body or gender role, or many other things. For me, sometimes my internal body map is male. I don't know why, it's odd and I cognitively know that I still have a female body. But I've known others whose internal map is consistently different than their body, i.e., it is male while they are female or female while they are male. I think that would be difficult to live with and have a lot of empathy for them.

I think that's a big component for some trans people, though not all (most?) of them.

What is Somatognosia? The Brain’s Map of the Body - Biology Insights

The issue being that what a 'parody of a woman' is, is very subjective.

I don't think we have any grounds to prevent men dressing in regular feminine coded clothes if they want.

It's perfectly acceptable for women to dress in a more male coded way - so that has to apply across sexes I think.

But it should be in line with general dress codes. If it's not acceptable for a woman to wear fishnets and fuck me boots in the workplace, it's not okay for a man to either.

There are times and places where it might be OK to push those confines, but the workplace, a benefit for a children's charity, etc etc., are not appropriate times and places.
A man pushing the boundaries of normal menswear in the workplace is one thing; a man dressing up as a parody of a woman is another.

Within the confines of standard dress codes and what's normal in society.

The idea that you can be 'born in the wrong body' is worth looking at, as it seems to be the motivation for a lot of the 'lovely trans people who feel they were born in the wrong body just want to get on with their lives'

First of all, it's obviously impossible - everybody is born into their own body, that goes without saying.
Can people be unhappy about their bodies? Of course - ask any teenager!
Can people be profoundly and dangerously unhappy about their bodies? - tragically, yes, ask any anorexic person.

Secondly, it has in the past been seen as a problem to be overcome, with the ideal outcome being a person who is at one with their body.

No parent tells a teenager - 'yes you're right, everybody is going to laugh at you because your wrists/nose/skull/eyebrows are a really weird shape.'

A person suffering from anorexia is not - except on malevolent websites - told that yes they are overweight and they must continue to limit their food intake.

Thirdly, a strong body positivity movement arose in the 2010s which called for acceptance of all sorts of body types, and being happy in your body, whatever its shape and size.

But in a complete reversal of body positivity, 'born in the wrong body' became a badge of honour and a rallying-cry for the trans movement.

A child so unhappy about their body that they actually think it is the wrong sex needs loving support to help them accept who they are, what sex they are, and how they can ignore gender stereotypes to grow up to be a non-gender-conforming woman or man, in the body they were born with.

Thanks to the trans movement, those children were instead encouraged in their body negativity, and offered as a solution the impossible idea of 'transitioning', changing their sex.
This may go so far as taking damaging medication, and possibly even surgical intervention on their perfectly healthy bodies.

All this to 'fix' the imaginary problem of being 'born in the wrong body'.
The problem is not the body, it is the feelings of negativity about the body.
Reinforcing that negativity by saying 'yes, poor marginalised transgender you, you were born in the wrong body!' is irresponsible and unhelpful.

And ultimately, the exact opposite of #bekind.

Men can present how they want.

I don't think anyone is saying this is appropriate, where are you getting that from?

Removing penis and testicles doesn’t stop them being men.

I object to men (and women) wearing their fetish in public. In what world do you think it appropriate to wear eg bondage gear to teach primary children? Why should a bank teller be allowed to wear a gimp mask? Or a doctor a nappy and a ‘baby-girl’ outfit?

I do think that it is an impossible situation. There is no middle ground around language despite the declarations of it being kind and respectful.

It cannot be healthy for a person to move out of a protective bubble that a group of people have created for that person and understand that actually, the rest of society isn’t part of that bubble. The immediate emotional reaction is to declare everyone not acting in support as being hateful.

Whereas, it is that material reality continues to abide regardless of all the changes an individual makes to support a subjective reality that is not material reality.

We have also seen some male people who then declare that absolutely not one person treats them as if they are not female. When that is almost impossible. Either they live in a bubble or they simply lack the self awareness to acknowledge that others have correctly identified their sex.

What those male people do highlight though is where people’s well meaning actions end up. With male people who cannot accept material reality about the sex category of their body and who can get abusive towards those who refuse to treat a man as if they were a woman. Whether the well meaning person intended to do this or not, every one of them in the life of that man contributed to that man never being able to accept material reality.

How the fuck is that healthy for that person? And how the fuck is that an acceptable outcome of someone’s well intentioned middle ground?

Transwomen ARE men. They are fully intact males with penis and testicles. They are just wearing a dress instead of a suit and tie. That's all. They are men. And evidence shows transwomen commit sexual offences 5 times higher than all other males. Transwomen are far more dangerous to women than other males, that is per prison and government data.

Fetishes extend to being castrated (or having your legs amputated). The most popular surgery for men who identify as trans is breast implants….

They aren't yet acknowledging that trans people do have a right to present as they wish and to move through life with dignity.

I don't see that anyone has an issue with this.

Men can present how they want. No one should be discriminated against for presenting in a way that isn't typical for their sex.

But we aren't going to pretend that men can become women - in any way, which includes language.

It really is that simple. I'm not sure what else you want from people.

"Sure, you say he knows he is male. But he likes it when people use female pronouns and female descriptors for him, else you wouldn’t do it. Even adding trans in front of daughter does that. You can use that language, not one other person should be expected to though.
You insist there is a middle ground. Is there a middle ground? I consider the only middle ground suggested involves changing established language for an entire society to suit someone’s subjective reality that is not material reality. Even if you say ‘but it is just a few of them’ or ‘we don’t really know how they feel but it makes them happy’ as a reason, the middle ground is not middle ground at all."

And I've wondered about this. Say we have a young person who is affirmed in college and at home and then they nip to the corner shop and Dave behind the counter does not understand all this newfangled political correctness but thinks it's fine men can wear dresses as he grew up in the 80s, so refers to that young man who is used to being referred to as a girl as 'son'.

This smack against reality must be jarring. The unhappiness that Dave caused by referring to him as male vs the nice staff at college who he has convinced himself actually see him as female because the words they use say as such, must further entrench a feeling that he is correct about himself.

I saw it play out when an acquaintance had his operation. Suddenly Nancy in the charity shop letting on that she recognised him as male had an even bigger impact because the stakes were now higher. From how he described addressing it, I would not have liked to be on the receiving end.

Edited to add I liked this person. Seeing the distress he was still in despite all he had put his body through was not nice.

No, I agree with you there.
My question was more to point out that if it is just a case of name changing and wearing womens clothes, then that is a deluded fetish, that is obviously being enabled and pandered to. And demeaning to women.
Even with surgery, as I pointed out further up, men are men, women are women, there is no question there at all. There are only 2 sexes.

My sympathy lies with those who truly feel they were born into the wrong body. I don't buy into popping a dress on and demanding to be called Susan. That's a mental health issue. Not a physical issue.

A compromise? Like everyone accepting the earth is actually a dome shape rather than a globe because some people insist it is flat?

A lot of what s/he posts is well-argued and compelling. Would recommend a follow to those of you on X.
https://x.com/prof_curiosity1

You're ignoring the fact that you started this by rudely telling me off for using the correct pronouns. It's very disingenuous of you to pretend to be polite and reasonable and just want separate spaces and respect. You have no idea what forcing everyone around you to comply will end up causing for women's safety and we don't trust you given the previous behaviour of the affirmation camp. We see you and we do not comply.

@Waheymum "I agree that hormones have been/are being used as an easy replacement for genuine mental health help and that it shows. I think it's always shown though, especially if you talk to transwomen rather than avoid them."

So they're men with serious mental health issues? History and experience informs us that the 2 things put together never ends well for women.