Aren't transpeople still a tiny minority?

But you think he has the right to appropriate female language?

Life is short, calm down, live and let live and try to find some joy along the way

Life is, in fact, going to calm up.

I don't think that's my role as the parent of an adult who has free will. Particularly when I spent the teen years doing just that with the result of severe depression that lasted years.

I have and do ensured that she understands she is trans. Not a woman, a trans woman. Not my daughter, my trans daughter. These are the lines I hold. You were a boy. You did exist as Harry. You are now Helen and I still love you, and I will keep up the pictures of Harry who is who you used to be. As Helen you are a valid and loved human but you do not have the right to enter women's intimate spaces (and nor would she want to).

So you are saying that once someone believes gender identity is real and think it applies to them because that is what they have been taught in school, it is pointless trying to dissuade them of their belief because it makes them happy?

Sorry but you’re missing my point. You are using different statistics together to lead to a conclusion without understanding the contact of the data eg how it was collected, what possible flaws there could be, slightly different definitions, different dates or time frames etc etc

It is like saying that if the proportion of voters for party x in London is y% and then assuming the proportion of voters for x is going to be the same in some small village.

No. I came on here referring to my trans daughter. I never refer to her as my daughter.

I don't think you are "the problem"

I said earlier it's a complex social issue, which you dismissed iirc.

I think teaching children about gender identity as if there were a clear evidence base for it is harmful and should not happen. I have nowhere suggested that you on FWR are proponents of this teaching. I know you are against it. I am in agreement.

I think teaching young people that a few people identify as the opposite sex, that this is pretty rare, and those people deserve the same respect as others and should not be vilified or mocked is okay.

I think as a society accepting that some people are gender non conforming and that's ok is fair. I think accepting that those people may be in danger or deeply uncomfortable in spaces for their natal sex has to be acknowledged. This doesn't mean that they should therefore access spaces for the other sex.

I think trans people organising their own times to use community facilities and using rooms for the sex they identify as during these sessions is also fair enough.

I think "the problem" is societal and Zeitgeisty. I think my child would never have been gender conforming. I think society has taught my young person that they are therefore trans. I acknowledge that this was deeply troubling to them when they believed that if they admitted this, we their family would possibly reject them. I acknowledge that knowing they are accepted anyway has been transformative. I would like it if they had a way to move easily through life in a way that didn't force they or others to be invalidated.

No. You came on here referring to your son (who isn't here) as your 'daughter' and as 'she'. This is how this ideology got into schools in the first place. It is not a kindness. It is a lie.

'I think teaching young people that a few people identify as the opposite sex, that this is pretty rare, and those people deserve the same respect as others and should not be vilified or mocked is okay'

No. I don't agree. Gender non-conforming, fine. But this kind of thinking buys into gender ideology. 'identifying as the opposite sex' is meaningless and just perpetuates gender stereotypes.

Yes, society has taught your young person they are trans. No, of course you shouldn't reject them. But pretending on here and muddying language is part of the social issue that caused your son's thinking in the first place.

No, they have in many cases been taught in school that humans have a gender identity and that if they question their gender they may well be trans as "cis" people don't do that.

Believing what you are taught and introspecting on it and feeling that it applies to you does not make one deluded. It may make one susceptible to manipulation, credulous, vulnerable....which is possibly why so many are autistic, in which cognitive flexibility is a core difficulty.

I don't think you are "the problem"

I said earlier it's a complex social issue, which you dismissed iirc.

I think teaching children about gender identity as if there were a clear evidence base for it is harmful and should not happen. I have nowhere suggested that you on FWR are proponents of this teaching. I know you are against it. I am in agreement.

I think teaching young people that a few people identify as the opposite sex, that this is pretty rare, and those people deserve the same respect as others and should not be vilified or mocked is okay.

I think as a society accepting that some people are gender non conforming and that's ok is fair. I think accepting that those people may be in danger or deeply uncomfortable in spaces for their natal sex has to be acknowledged. This doesn't mean that they should therefore access spaces for the other sex.

I think trans people organising their own times to use community facilities and using rooms for the sex they identify as during these sessions is also fair enough.

I think "the problem" is societal and Zeitgeisty. I think my child would never have been gender conforming. I think society has taught my young person that they are therefore trans. I acknowledge that this was deeply troubling to them when they believed that if they admitted this, we their family would possibly reject them. I acknowledge that knowing they are accepted anyway has been transformative. I would like it if they had a way to move easily through life in a way that didn't force they or others to be invalidated.

And the point made is that their patterns, for risk assessment, are not equal to or lower than female people.

I think that the statistics can be correctly interpreted to support that claim as per the post before the one you quoted which pointed out:

"In 2019, there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders. I haven’t looked up the stats since. But I wouldn’t expect this will be different. Last time I looked at the raw stats for female sex offences, they had remained stable numbers for a decade or more despite population growth.

For male people with transgender identities to have the same rate of committing sex offences, there would be 8 (3.3% of 243) prisoners with trans identities in the UK prison population with sex offences.

8
Not 151."

I would like people to say "look, we appreciate that most trans women are just trying to live their lives, but it's important to acknowledge that ordinary women have rights that clash and we cannot validate trans people simply by allowing access to female spaces and awards. It should never have been on the table and the lobbying didn't consider the needs or rights of natal women. There are women who will then be excluded, including some religious women, those who have a history of trauma, and so on. So it doesn't work for us.
We can also see it doesn't work for you to be forced into a male toilet or a male hospital ward when you are sick and vulnerable.
Let's work together on solutions that enable privacy and dignity for ALL".

What makes you think that wasn’t the starting point?

It’s very close to the tweet by JK Rowling that got her blasted as transphobic. It’s also similar to the original premise of WPUK. And I’ve already mentioned Venice Allan’s attempt to get Stonewall to sit down & discuss it & what that led to.

Acceptance without exception? No debate?

There are women who have been campaigning for years on this, lost their jobs, had rape threats, been threatened & physically attacked. And yet it’s always us who are expected to be reasonable.

Who on the other side is going to say “Yes, we recognise the importance of women’s rights & single sex spaces, let’s find a way forward that gives us our own spaces instead of us using yours”?

I was going to write my own response but this pretty much says it all.

And we didn't push gender ideology into school. We're the ones fighting against it!

Keep thinking we're the problem though @Diverze. It's easier to think that than to face the truth, I'm sure.

@BettyBooper I would like people to change the rhetoric.

I would like people on here to stop mocking transpeople with the line "stunning and brave" or suggesting that any person who loves and defends a trans person expects them to be "fawned over " whilst loudly declaring their family member is a man and plopping "he" as an entire post. It's just not constructive. I am not asking you to respect someone's pronouns, but surely you can see an entire post that just says the word "he" in response to me explaining a viewpoint is just inflammatory and unnecessary?

I would like people to stop making out that every transperson is perverted, fetishistic or mentally ill. I would like to stop the hyperbole around fringe trans people like Isla Bryson.

I would like people to acknowledge that trans people are heterogeneous like other groups. If anything, perhaps the largest subgroup especially among young adult trans women is autistic and rather vulnerable.

I would like people to say "look, we appreciate that most trans women are just trying to live their lives, but it's important to acknowledge that ordinary women have rights that clash and we cannot validate trans people simply by allowing access to female spaces and awards. It should never have been on the table and the lobbying didn't consider the needs or rights of natal women. There are women who will then be excluded, including some religious women, those who have a history of trauma, and so on. So it doesn't work for us.

We can also see it doesn't work for you to be forced into a male toilet or a male hospital ward when you are sick and vulnerable.

Let's work together on solutions that enable privacy and dignity for ALL".

Diverze Which is all fair enough but don't then pretend that FWR is championing 3rd spaces. It doesn't have to, but don't then pretend that is the main advocacy on here.

FWR is not a monolith, there's more than one opinion, and opinions change over time, in response to changing facts.

I for one regularly challenge the concept of '3rd spaces' as the panacea - first of all, there already are 3rd spaces, they are the accessible toilets which are for disabled people who actually need them, not able-bodied people who feel more 'comfortable' using them, we are talking here about FOURTH spaces in buildings which already have the other three kinds of spaces.

The cost, both in terms of money and disruption, is huge, and my point is that such huge expenditure for such a tiny percentage of the population, who are perfectly able to use the existing facilities designated for their sex, is difficult to justify.

And then there is the argument that facilities like toilets and changing rooms are separated on the basis of biological sex, not gender, and everybody is either one biological sex or the other, so nobody has 'nowhere to pee' in the established men's/women's/accessible configuration.

But yes, many posters on here have supported the idea of 4th spaces for transpeople.

It's also true that many of them have changed their opinion over time as it becomes obvious from well-publicised behaviour by TWs that what they demand is not 3rd/4th spaces, but validation by having access to women's toilets.

There is a range of opinion on the topic of 4th spaces, some pragmatic, some on principle, and opinions sometimes change in the face of new evidence.

The major thing that we all agree on is that 'transwomen' are men. Yes, I'll correct wrong sex pronouns because language needs to be clear.

You have the TRAs to blame for presenting the trans community as one heterogenous group. Not us. We were told that anyonec who said they were trans should be believed. Including Isla Bryson. Our concerns about such men accessing women's spaces were dismissed (as you are doing to a degree now). If women got hurt, they were acceptable collateral damage it seems.

So honestly, I'm pretty much out. Fight your own battles. Women have been treated like absolute shit by the trans rights brigade. We owe these men nothing.

Men can stay out of women's spaces. Beyond that, I have no interest in how
mem present, what they wear. They are welcome to do whatever. However I'm not going to entertain any suggestion that they are anything other than men.

I hope that's clear

@Diverze
If trans people campaign for third/fourth spaces and women's rights campaigners merely stay out their way, don't bully, harass or intimidate them, don't set off smoke bombs, release swarms of insects, bang on windows, scream in their faces with megaphones, try to get them fired, drown out their talks with loud music, then they will be giving a lot more help to the campaign than was granted the other way around.

No, they have in many cases been taught in school that humans have a gender identity and that if they question their gender they may well be trans as "cis" people don't do that.

Believing what you are taught and introspecting on it and feeling that it applies to you does not make one deluded. It may make one susceptible to manipulation, credulous, vulnerable....which is possibly why so many are autistic, in which cognitive flexibility is a core difficulty.