To what extent are we allowed to discuss parallels between cults and gender ideology?

Oh absolutely: all the ones who are too "emotional" about the subject. If people could be less emotional then everything would be clear to them.

Too much heat, not enough light. People just need to calm down. I don't see why this is such a big deal. It's an emotive issue, for both sides. Everyone just needs to take a step back. We all need to get along. Etc.

Um... Needs context. Who is, or who are?

The people who can't see it are the willfully blind

They definitely have been banned for it.

My PhD research studied the exit narratives of former cult members (what are also called "total institutions" in that people who join them have invested their entire life in them and believe that they will remain in them for life, that “this is IT”).

Some of the parallels that I can see between my research and the current trans movement are:

• Most hold world transformational views; In addition to a sense that the members of these total institutions were saving the world, they also felt they “were preparing something new and [. . .] dazzling” (Ayers 2001, 71), revisioning how society would work in the future.
• In the 1960s development, most members were “white, middle class, and of college age” 10 (Jacobs 1987; Roszak 1969); members of 1960s/1970s alternative movements were drawn principally from “the educated, privileged children of the American dream, who found their society flawed and failing” (Daner 1976, 7)
• Members of total institutions were usually dependent on the institution for their friendships.
• Adaptation to the total institutional norms generally involved a process of change. Often members were asked to renounce their personal possessions and/or alter their appearances, in order to become divested of the “identity kit” (Goffman 1961, 20) they had within the norms of the “outside” society.
• Members often adopted new names
• Members used an in-group language; the use of in-group jargon reinforces group identity, allowing members to feel “privy to momentous revelations” (Levine 1984, 89) or otherwise “in the know”.
• Most had a patriarchal hierarchy that accorded men higher status than women; men’s sense of power was given a boost if the organisation’s patriarchal ideology supported male privilege, giving them permission to be obsessed with control and oppressive in their treatment of women (Bromley and Busching 1988; Johnson 2005)
• All members of total institutions – men and women alike – adhered to common ideological norms concerning behaviour. Women, however, were disproportionately marginalised in these organisations, with control over many aspects of their lives “abdicated” to male authority (Jacobs 1984, 166). This made for a very unequal exchange in terms of who had power and what status was accorded various members in these total institutions.

The things that are generally present in “cults” but not necessarily (at least on my reading of it) present in the trans movement are:

• Members usually lived communally
• Total institutions typically have a strong authoritarian structure, generally with a charismatic leader at the top, a middle-level group directly responsible to the leader, and a larger membership of low-status “ordinary” followers. Thus, information and power flowed from the top downwards; the immediate authorities controlled the day-to-day activities of members, engaging them in full-time organisational tasks (Goffman 1961; Daner 1976; Bromley 1991a; Jacobs 1987, 1984; Bromley and Shupe 1980; Eister 1972).
• each total institution would have a set of rules that members agreed to obey (Fuller and Martin 2003)
• Members of total institutions were usually dependent on the institution for their livelihood
• Authorities typically restricted members’ participation in conventional social institutions to only those activities that were deemed absolutely necessary (Bromley and Shupe 1980; Bucher 1983).
• most of these institutions were evangelistic, necessitating the memoirists living in several different places across their institutions; Some of these total institutions kept dyadic partners separated, by engaging them in organisational fundraising and recruitment activities to such an extent that little time was left for the relationship. This both weakened the non-institutional nature of the relationships, and ensured that institutional goals took precedence over anything else (Wright 1986).
• A common feature in total institutions is the need to control exclusive relationships, with various prohibitions against emotional intimacy, and how controls over exclusive bonds of dyadic relationships are implemented by those in authority. This is a group self-protective measure, lest energies get drained away from institutional obligations (Wright 1986; Simmel 1950; Slater 1963; Kanter 1968, 1973b).

False Prophet on Netflix and Twisted Yoga on Apple tv are 2 good examples of how 2 very different ideas ended up with vulnerable women and children making online porn. The power of some individuals and the groups which spring up around them is scary and there is a direct link to weakened safeguarding rules. Which has lots of parallels.

And supporters being thrown to the wolves because they are insufficiently supportive. There is no way of keeping yourself safe, even with full prostration to the cause. Someone can always find a reason to hang you out to dry.

😄that's funny!

1. Followers feeling that they are never able to be “good enough”

e.g. the many sad postings on https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/ from members of the cult bemoaning how they will never pass because they are too big, too tall, etc

Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding the budget

Excellent point

I Googled "What is a cult?" & found this article with an interesting check list on how to spot a cult. Genderism lacks a single leader but all the other points are spot on confirming it's a cult.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without accountability
2. Zero tolerance for criticism or questions
3. Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding the budget
4. Unreasonable fears about the outside world that often involve evil conspiracies and persecutions
5. A belief that former followers are always wrong for leaving and there is never a legitimate reason for anyone else to leave
6. Abuse of members
7. Records, books, articles, or programs documenting the abuses of the leader or group
8. Followers feeling that they are never able to be “good enough”
9. A belief that the leader is right at all times
10. A belief that the leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or giving validation

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-cult-5078234

The insistence on controlling language is a cult practice, 'assigned at birth', 'cis', 'preferred pronouns' it's all sounds like doctrine, which is a cultish practice (religions to, but I think religions are cult's as well).

The focus on schools and indoctrinating children.
The emotional blackmail to get their way.
The threats to anyone who objects.
It all sounds like people who have been programmed to think in a certain way, which is definitely cultish.

The issue is that for some people in difficult positions, belonging to such a group may cost them a lot (eg body parts, money, family ties etc) but they get a lot out of the movement and maybe they do feel better. There are Scientologists who say that giving all their wealth was the best thing they did… It’s just tgat those are individuals and it won’t scale up to big national levels because outside the Local Bubble there are too many non believers who keep ruining the mirage

Defeats are presented as victories and the great victory is always just round the corner

Certainly sums up the GLO

Is there a cult of Tunnocks tea cakes? I'm asking because during the Sandie Peggie case they were discussed quite a lot and I took some on a picnic, saw someone I hadn't seen for ages, and she immediately spotted them and said 'Oh, you're one of us...' I thought it was so much nicer than carrying a rolled up copy of the Times like spies were once meant to.

It fascinates me how people can be persuaded to cut off their families and show unquestioning belief in their leader's pronouncements. Defeats are presented as victories and the great victory is always just round the corner once they've defeated the Satanic figure.

You're talking rubbish.

Interesting. Although ive always assumed that cult isnt a great description as theres no single figurehead.

“secular religion” was the best phrase I have heard.

the methods definitely use some of Cialdini's 6 principles:

Reciprocity: People feel obliged to return favors or gifts, such as free samples or information.

Commitment & Consistency: People tend to align with their previous actions or statements. Once a small commitment is made, they are more likely to agree to larger, related requests.

Social Proof: When unsure, people look to others' behaviors and actions to guide their own decisions, such as using testimonials or user reviews.

Authority: People follow the lead of, or are influenced by, credible, knowledgeable experts.

Liking: People prefer to say yes to those they like, find attractive, or consider similar to themselves.

Scarcity: People value things more when they are rare, limited, or becoming unavailable

So in relation to gender transitions this would be:

Reciprocity: maybe not the most common in this movement but eg Mermaids giving out free binders.

Commitment & Consistency: public displays such as pronoun badges/email footers, rainbow lanyards, social transition of children. Get someone to publicly lie (eg TWAW and some women have a penis) and it’s difficult for them to tell the truth next time

Social Proof: peer influence/social contagion at the small scale and nation-wise eg being influenced by an also trying to impress others eg friends/neighbours or on a larger stage, politicians esp Joe Biden (even if we now know he wasnt in charge of much for a long time…)

Authority: WPATH standards of care, the BBC garbage news coverage & Women’s Hour, Stonewall Law. Other governments - particularly Biden’s administration. Totally made up studies about suicide rates

Liking: Press for Change made friends with civil servants and lobbied their new friends; “Be Kind” as enforced likeability

Scarcity: puberty blockers time bound and “I’d rather have a trans child than a dead child”.

The question is - how do we go about reversing any of these Cialdini principles?! He was a salesman so only interested in using them in one direction - never undoing the effects…

There are clear commonalities around ...

Lack of tolerance of any kind of questioning or dissent. Only full throated affirmation is allowed.

Casting out and smearing of 'apostates' (ie detransitioners).

Repetition of key phrases that function, not as statements of truth, but as identifiers of 'allyship'. I.e 'transwomen are women', 'no debate', references to 'erasure' and 'genocide'.

Creating wedges between individuals and their families (among the most insidious).

Less common, especially now, but there was a vogue for styling transpeople as somehow 'divine' or marked out as special in some way.

More straightforwardly religious than cult like, but a belief in an inner self that is somehow separate from the physical self, hence 'born in the wrong body' type explanations.

I'm sure there is more, but top of mind

I think one similarity with cults is that its vocal proponents tend to be in positions of relative power in society - hence the preponderance of white middle class 'progressives' and of middle aged TIMs - whereas those it particularly badly affects aren't - ie girls with mental health issues and/or struggling with ND.

There's very clear parallels between GI and cults -

Members being encouraged to sever ties with family and friends (parallel -Scientology's disconnection) creating an 'us v them' mentality

No dissent - as seen in no debate, deplatforming, control of language

No exit allowed - detransitioners being ruthlessly attacked and denigrated.

It's clear as day but up until recently we've not been allowed to even suggest it.

I think it also depended on who was monitoring the board at that time (I'm including both MN official staff and our "visitors" from other forums).

And do you remember that MN Intern who published IP addresses of users from this forum because she considered posters on FWR as being "transphobic scum." We have gone through some rather dire times!

Yep. I've had very few posts deleted but one of those was for using the word peak.

Similar to how Trans Widows are shouted down for 'misappropriating the term' by TRA's but similar use of the term in other contexts (golf, rugby, darts etc) doesn't draw the same ire.

A few years back on here I did a post where I went through Robert Lifton's 8 criteria of thought control/totalising thought processes - he's the guy that came up with the concept of the "thought-terminating cliche" of which "trans women are women" is a perfect example.

If you have a look, you can immediately see parallels with trans rights advocacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism